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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 17:03:21 GMT
Ran this on the 4th twice into PT. Close grindy games with both but I think I would have been in a lot better shape with better positioning. Bokur is there NOT for the PT match up (but I think I could do good things with him now that I think about it) but more for match ups like Crucible Guard or others where the butcher does NOT want to get shot ;-) As soon as Sorscha0 comes out she is the immediate swap out for Andy - but I do love Redline on the Spriggan ;-) Thoughts? Basically the clams are sacrifical meat and then I use Butcher and the other jacks behind to clean up. Plus Hell mouths HATE seeing those things ;-) conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0xdI7q7qkWeQe3kU9i8r8y86ch8e___-0T77kXl5l5chl27Ml0l7l17QgdKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Ruin [17] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)] - Spriggan [17] Ogrun Bokur [5] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 17:14:17 GMT
You've made some choices here that I personally would not have made:
1. Double Devastators bothers me because that's 28 points in your list that your opponent can reliably assume aren't going to be making any reasonable attacks. Personally I find once you slot in a unit of Eliminators, you're pretty much set to contest on a crucial turn.
2. Bokur feels like a waste of a merc solo slot, as you could easily find the points for a Rager and bring in something really useful like Orin or Eilish to keep things like Crippling Grasp/Enfeeble off of Butcher (yes you can whack a dog with Ruin but do you really want to use his activation like that and lose a dog).
3. A warjack heavy list without Forge Seers seems really strange to me. To me, one of the greatest benefits of Jaws is that you would actually want to put a warjack on the Forge Seer to skip taking Aiyana and Holt for some magical weapons. The two focus they bring are also fairly useful as Butcher3 generally can't afford or even want to hand out his stack if he can help it. The Forge Seers can do some work as well in a pinch!
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Post by auraco on Jul 5, 2018 17:24:48 GMT
As bearstronaut said, the bokurs feels like an odd choice, I feel like scrounging points for a rager would probably be worth it. So would having one of the better merc solos. I disagree with him about the lack of forge seer though. The list has only two jack that really require fuelling from butcher, Ruin and the juggernaut, I run more jacks that need fuelling than that in my B3 WGK list and I don't feel like it's too much of a focus charge for butcher, so having one less focus hungry jack in his list I really don't feel like the forge seers are necessary. Also have you tried marshalling a jack on a forge seer to serve as magic weapon bot? From my experience I've found that it's simply not enough, the jack with magical weapons needs to stay close to the forge seer and doesn't benefit from battlegoup buffs, so it a very telegraphed and unflexible move based on two spd 4 models. I think Ayana & holt are still mandatory for meaninfull magical weapon presence outside of Wolves of winter.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 17:39:46 GMT
If the Devastators are replaced then there is a new demand for more focus. The Forge Seers are a perfectly flexible unit for 4 points. Empower can also cure Disruption off of a warjack, which could mean the difference between a 50/50 game and a lopsided loss. Butcher3's strength is his personal threat. If your opponent can grasp that the focus is going to either his battlegroup OR Butcher3, then he can play accordingly. Having an extra 2 focus to hand out means that both your battlegroup and Butcher3 can be a simultaneous threat each and every turn. Personal choice I suppose. For 4 points each I have no idea why you would skip them.
Also yes I've marshalled Behemoth and a Destroyer to a Forge Seer. I think the Behemoth/Forge Seer combo is a bit of a meme, and it's not worth the points most of the time. I have no complaints about the Destroyer though, boosting blast damage on Gremlin Swarms or Feralgeists have saved me one more than one occasion.
I hate Aiyana and Holt and avoid them whenever I can. I think they are a bloated piece that Khador players crutch on far too often. There are lists I still feel that I have to include them in, but I'm never happy about it. If it were not for Gremlin Swarms I would never take A+H unless I wanted Harm first Magical Weapons second.
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Post by auraco on Jul 5, 2018 17:46:53 GMT
I'm really not sold on forge seers being worth it, I know 4 point is cheap, but I don't think it's worth it for just a focus bot.
I also have wraith engine in mind when talking about magical weapons, having two jacks and being able to give magical weapons to either of them really helps when compared to having the one jack with magical weapons that can be destroyed. Ayana & holt can also hang out further back than a forge seer and still apply the bonus. I'm also not happy about including Ayana & Holt in most of my list, but with the tools available outside of Wolves of winter I think they are a necessary evil. Lets hope the greylord adjunct fixes that, but in the meantime forge seers and marshalled jacks just don't cut if for me.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 17:58:51 GMT
You've made some choices here that I personally would not have made: 1. Double Devastators bothers me because that's 28 points in your list that your opponent can reliably assume aren't going to be making any reasonable attacks. Personally I find once you slot in a unit of Eliminators, you're pretty much set to contest on a crucial turn. 2. Bokur feels like a waste of a merc solo slot, as you could easily find the points for a Rager and bring in something really useful like Orin or Eilish to keep things like Crippling Grasp/Enfeeble off of Butcher (yes you can whack a dog with Ruin but do you really want to use his activation like that and lose a dog). 3. A warjack heavy list without Forge Seers seems really strange to me. To me, one of the greatest benefits of Jaws is that you would actually want to put a warjack on the Forge Seer to skip taking Aiyana and Holt for some magical weapons. The two focus they bring are also fairly useful as Butcher3 generally can't afford or even want to hand out his stack if he can help it. The Forge Seers can do some work as well in a pinch! So some elaboration 1) Crucible guard FULLY capable of largely shooting off an ARM 20 jack for a turn before it ever closes. Not so much A devestator. Ditto as they spray for days the eliminators. They also are critical for the road blocks you need for the Vulcan - who can otherwise simply Bulldoze for 16 to get to the butcher and then jackhammer into the ground. Yes. They are paper weights. But they are paper weights which can't be FULLY ignored as with SoD go up to POW 18. They also tend to encourgage clumping - butcher's prefered state to see the board. 2) Bokur - At least I need an answer to Hurrican slams/Puncture drags. He can also serve as an important "don't shoot" deterrent if you position one of your Argus near him so that AOEs spash on the argus and potentially trigger vengeance. (see again CG with the Vulcan chem trail arm debuff). At the very least smart players that feel they NEED the shot must anticipate the extra vengance threat extension even if they don't fear the AOE spike damage on the argus. 3) I went back and forth on the Forge Seers and whether to include them as a focus battery. Given that butcher and Ruin already have magic weapons - and that objectives can provide it to Marksman and Spriggan can destealth things it felt like I could get away with it. I also think that the way this is designed to piece trade I was never going to be in a situation where I needed BOTH the Jugger and Ruin _AND_ Butcher to do work on the same turn. So if it is the Jack's turn to trade, Butcher can use distance to survive. If Butcher than the one power up aint great but the Jugger and Ruin's job is to body block for a non-feated butcher.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 18:01:29 GMT
Play them in mind as more than just a focus bot. Their statline is really impressive for a 4 point solo, even at SPD 4. If nothing else they're a decently reliable way to get rid of stupid things like Machine Wraiths and Feralgeists locking down a zone for the whole game.
I've gotten over my irrational fear of Wraith Engines. With the lists I play the Cryx player usually have to commit them into making attacks and at that point it's simply applying a Red Lined Marauder to the face.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 18:08:51 GMT
You've made some choices here that I personally would not have made: 1. Double Devastators bothers me because that's 28 points in your list that your opponent can reliably assume aren't going to be making any reasonable attacks. Personally I find once you slot in a unit of Eliminators, you're pretty much set to contest on a crucial turn. 2. Bokur feels like a waste of a merc solo slot, as you could easily find the points for a Rager and bring in something really useful like Orin or Eilish to keep things like Crippling Grasp/Enfeeble off of Butcher (yes you can whack a dog with Ruin but do you really want to use his activation like that and lose a dog). 3. A warjack heavy list without Forge Seers seems really strange to me. To me, one of the greatest benefits of Jaws is that you would actually want to put a warjack on the Forge Seer to skip taking Aiyana and Holt for some magical weapons. The two focus they bring are also fairly useful as Butcher3 generally can't afford or even want to hand out his stack if he can help it. The Forge Seers can do some work as well in a pinch! So some elaboration 1) Crucible guard FULLY capable of largely shooting off an ARM 20 jack for a turn before it ever closes. Not so much A devestator. Ditto as they spray for days the eliminators. They also are critical for the road blocks you need for the Vulcan - who can otherwise simply Bulldoze for 16 to get to the butcher and then jackhammer into the ground. Yes. They are paper weights. But they are paper weights which can't be FULLY ignored as with SoD go up to POW 18. They also tend to encourgage clumping - butcher's prefered state to see the board. 2) Bokur - At least I need an answer to Hurrican slams/Puncture drags. He can also serve as an important "don't shoot" deterrent if you position one of your Argus near him so that AOEs spash on the argus and potentially trigger vengeance. (see again CG with the Vulcan chem trail arm debuff). At the very least smart players that feel they NEED the shot must anticipate the extra vengance threat extension even if they don't fear the AOE spike damage on the argus. 3) I went back and forth on the Forge Seers and whether to include them as a focus battery. Given that butcher and Ruin already have magic weapons - and that objectives can provide it to Marksman and Spriggan can destealth things it felt like I could get away with it. I also think that the way this is designed to piece trade I was never going to be in a situation where I needed BOTH the Jugger and Ruin _AND_ Butcher to do work on the same turn. So if it is the Jack's turn to trade, Butcher can use distance to survive. If Butcher than the one power up aint great but the Jugger and Ruin's job is to body block for a non-feated butcher. I think you're crippling your list building by being scared of some hyper specific scenarios. If you're playing against powerful gunlines, we have a lot of casters with some very real anti-gun tech, don't drop Butcher3 against them. There is nothing forcing your opponent to waste their attacks on your devastators and they will likely throw something expendable to get in their way. One Bokur doesn't solve Hurricane slams or Prime Axiom drags anyway? They can fire those twice. I've said my piece already about Forge Seers. I think they're worth it once you start investing in warjacks.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 18:12:26 GMT
So some elaboration 1) Crucible guard FULLY capable of largely shooting off an ARM 20 jack for a turn before it ever closes. Not so much A devestator. Ditto as they spray for days the eliminators. They also are critical for the road blocks you need for the Vulcan - who can otherwise simply Bulldoze for 16 to get to the butcher and then jackhammer into the ground. Yes. They are paper weights. But they are paper weights which can't be FULLY ignored as with SoD go up to POW 18. They also tend to encourgage clumping - butcher's prefered state to see the board. 2) Bokur - At least I need an answer to Hurrican slams/Puncture drags. He can also serve as an important "don't shoot" deterrent if you position one of your Argus near him so that AOEs spash on the argus and potentially trigger vengeance. (see again CG with the Vulcan chem trail arm debuff). At the very least smart players that feel they NEED the shot must anticipate the extra vengance threat extension even if they don't fear the AOE spike damage on the argus. 3) I went back and forth on the Forge Seers and whether to include them as a focus battery. Given that butcher and Ruin already have magic weapons - and that objectives can provide it to Marksman and Spriggan can destealth things it felt like I could get away with it. I also think that the way this is designed to piece trade I was never going to be in a situation where I needed BOTH the Jugger and Ruin _AND_ Butcher to do work on the same turn. So if it is the Jack's turn to trade, Butcher can use distance to survive. If Butcher than the one power up aint great but the Jugger and Ruin's job is to body block for a non-feated butcher. I think you're crippling your list building by being scared of some hyper specific scenarios. If you're playing against powerful gunlines, we have a lot of casters with some very real anti-gun tech, don't drop Butcher3 against them. There is nothing forcing your opponent to waste their attacks on your devastators and they will likely throw something expendable to get in their way. One Bokur doesn't solve Hurricane slams or Prime Axiom drags anyway? They can fire those twice. I've said my piece already about Forge Seers. I think they're worth it once you start investing in warjacks. CG is under Locke is BOTH a powerful gun line (4 to 5 POW 16s at 14 Rng) _AND_ a powerful melee army (-2 Arm debuff, hot swapped redline, road to war and Jackhammer). Since 2 of my meta just bought in (we will see about more when the faction box drops) I expect to see Vulcans most weekends for the foreseeable future.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 18:13:17 GMT
I think you're crippling your list building by being scared of some hyper specific scenarios. If you're playing against powerful gunlines, we have a lot of casters with some very real anti-gun tech, don't drop Butcher3 against them. There is nothing forcing your opponent to waste their attacks on your devastators and they will likely throw something expendable to get in their way. One Bokur doesn't solve Hurricane slams or Prime Axiom drags anyway? They can fire those twice. I've said my piece already about Forge Seers. I think they're worth it once you start investing in warjacks. CG is under Locke is BOTH a powerful gun line (4 to 5 POW 16s at 14 Rng) _AND_ a powerful melee army (-2 Arm debuff, hot swapped redline, road to war and Jackhammer). Since 2 of my meta just bought in (we will see about more when the faction box drops) I expect to see Vulcans most weekends for the foreseeable future. Ditto Double Champions and Double Chosen under PT. Interesting Cryx right now is underrepresented in our meta.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 18:16:13 GMT
CG is under Locke is BOTH a powerful gun line (4 to 5 POW 16s at 14 Rng) _AND_ a powerful melee army (-2 Arm debuff, hot swapped redline, road to war and Jackhammer). Since 2 of my meta just bought in (we will see about more when the faction box drops) I expect to see Vulcans most weekends for the foreseeable future. Ditto Double Champions and Double Chosen under PT. Interesting Cryx right now is underrepresented in our meta. If you're that scared of 2 units of Crucible Guard Infantry that have no caster support, then I don't know, there's not much I can suggest.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 18:17:24 GMT
If you're that scared of 1 unit of Crucible Guard Infantry, then I don't know, there's not much I can suggest. No. Locke with 5 heavies and a vulcan.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 18:22:35 GMT
I stand by what I said: Your list building is schizophrenic because you're worried about too many specific threats and trying to make a list that can fight it all. You're making a weak list that makes it easier for people who are concerned about Butcher3, while not actually making your list much better against the matchups you're terrified of. If Crucible Guard and other gunlines are so prevalent in your meta, I would recommend Old Witch2 in WGK to deal with those and then tool Butcher3 to fight bricks.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 18:27:58 GMT
I stand by what I said: Your list building is schizophrenic because you're worried about too many specific threats and trying to make a list that can fight it all. You're making a weak list that makes it easier for people who are concerned about Butcher3, while not actually making your list much better against the matchups you're terrified of. If Crucible Guard and other gunlines are so prevalent in your meta, I would recommend Old Witch2 in WGK to deal with those and then tool Butcher3 to fight bricks. <Sigh> You are not reading (or haven't thought about Crucible Guard). Locke is able to fight BOTH WAYS. She can shoot for days at Range....._OR_ bulldoze in fully from 16 inches and then Jackhammer your caster (or things) 8 times....OR trigger Road to War off your squishy things (which this list has compromised and has too many of but that feels like a necessary evil) to deliver precision striking Toros/Vidicators. Then she feats and unless you have (butcher) something capable of removing the Vulcan in one round you are looking at an ARM 22 god sitting deep in your zone. GG. Rather than degrade into diatribe what is your B3 list?
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 18:41:36 GMT
You will always lose to this list and any list that riles you up like this, because you'll start the game every time thinking you're already on the backfoot.
I can't tell if you started this thread wanting for people tell you that your list is perfect, or so that we could all have a pity party about Crucible Guard. Either way I can tell that you are dug in very hard with your opinions, so I don't see there being any progress made.
My last genuine piece of advice is to repeat what I think is very important with your list building: Do not play Butcher3 if you're this concerned about getting shot off the table. We have casters with good anti-gun tech that can wipe battlegroups off the table. Khador does not have trouble killing heavies or colossals.
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