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Post by Netherby on Jul 9, 2018 7:43:55 GMT
While I like the battle group in general, I don't think Juggernauts are really that useful into Cryx? Four Kodiaks would get more work done for sure...
I'm also not really sold on what Karchev is bringing to the match up that is actually particularly useful? Sure, you get a turn of magic weapons on your battle groups melee. But is that really that good into Cryx? Like what about this Butcher 3 list instead?
[Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Ruin [17] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Rager [10] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Rager [10] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
It can still deal pretty well with Bane spam and double Wraith Engine while not needing to rely on killing stuff for your threat extension. It should also have decent game into Slayers, probably more decent since you're unlikely to be able to trigger Road to War against a canny Slayers spammer.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 9, 2018 8:58:43 GMT
So let’s be honest and admit this exercise doesn’t really work until Sorscha 0 comes out, which I am betting happens at Gen Con for pre-release. (Fingers, toes, and other body parts crossed.) So how about this? War Room Army Khador - Karchev's 7 Jaws - Double Elims Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Sorscha 0 - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 You have to cover a Banespam matchup, so I think you need the Widowmakers, and double Elims with Side Step can still pump out 8 attacks. Also, too many cryx casters can easily disable one unit, so I am super skeptical about investing all your infantry marbles in the Kayazy Assassins. The Eliminators are also a bonafide threat to jacks. Thoughts? (Getting more excited about S0!) I like the list. Personally I don't play eliminators as I tend to use Devastators and they cost more the other jacks you want to use with Karchev, Widowmakers is an auto-include if you ask me. They bring huge versatility to Karchev, and my lists without them tend they play worse. I do see Eliminators use and it does give you more scenario play. The "pitfalls" are Cryx casters with Dark Guidance and such. Also Cryx usually has an arc node so spells threaten them quite alot too. There are better casters against Cryx in Khador, I don't think anyone us denying that. S0 is still going to be a big asset for Karchev against Cryx and while she might not tip the scale against Banes, she just might do it against the Slayers.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 11:42:34 GMT
There are several reasons I wanted to explore Karchev into Cryx;
-Countercharge could be a good tool vs slayers, knocking an arm off severly damages their output. -Knockdown gun with reload, great MAT fixer for our jacks vs slayers -Magical gun spray 10 with reload, great for infantry clear eapecially cryx -Battle group damage buffs and magical weapons, seems good into all pf cryx -Karchev also stands out as a pretty hard character to assassinate, a common gimmick for cryx.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 9, 2018 12:01:50 GMT
There are several reasons I wanted to explore Karchev into Cryx; -Countercharge could be a good tool vs slayers, knocking an arm off severly damages their output. -Knockdown gun with reload, great MAT fixer for our jacks vs slayers -Magical gun spray 10 with reload, great for infantry clear eapecially cryx -Battle group damage buffs and magical weapons, seems good into all pf cryx -Karchev also stands out as a pretty hard character to assassinate, a common gimmick for cryx. I'm not sure Cryx will find him hard to kill as his survivability is based on his armour/boxes, which is something they are good at dealing with? However Karchev also has clouds that kill you if you walk into them; might work well against weaponmaster infantry (perhaps with a couple of Supression Tankers to help fill in the gaps). I'm still internally debating the best infantry to use as targets to make sure the clouds go where you want them. AKs are immune to fire. Risen are cheap and easy to hit, but Kossites are pretty cheap too (less than Risen if you take a min unit) and have Advanced Deployment so you can get them farther up (if that's what you want).
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 9, 2018 16:16:33 GMT
Maybe it’s silly but what about taking Dirty Meg with a Talon?
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 9, 2018 17:56:36 GMT
Maybe it’s silly but what about taking Dirty Meg with a Talon? In place of?
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 9, 2018 18:11:16 GMT
I’d say in place of one of the Marauders in Armchair Warrior’s list. I don’t like having a leftover point but I think the utility that the Dirty Meg/Talon combo would bring makes up for the loss of a Marauder. The Stall attacks would be very handy into Slayer Spam and into the others you would have a faster jack and more attacks.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 11, 2018 8:53:03 GMT
There are several reasons I wanted to explore Karchev into Cryx; -Countercharge could be a good tool vs slayers, knocking an arm off severly damages their output. -Knockdown gun with reload, great MAT fixer for our jacks vs slayers -Magical gun spray 10 with reload, great for infantry clear eapecially cryx -Battle group damage buffs and magical weapons, seems good into all pf cryx -Karchev also stands out as a pretty hard character to assassinate, a common gimmick for cryx. I do think he can play into Slayers. Knocking them down is helpful and counter charge is great if you can cripple an arm. The damage buff is also not bad for dealing with the Slayers. It's the other lists that I feel like he has some problems with. Sure you get a turn of magical weapons and he can hose down some infantry, but you still have the problem that you're running a 'jack list and most of those Cryx lists really like playing into that... I don't think the assassination thing is that true into Cryx? Like 5 banes should kill him dead without help from their caster (assuming zero camp). Cryx usually have more trouble with high DEF, blocking LoS and staying far back casters. To get work out of the spray you're going to have to be super careful with positioning and/or maintain a high camp. It's worth experimenting with though. But we need some battle reports on some different load outs to see if it's going any where... Oh should also be testing and building assuming S0 is out, there is no reason to try without her.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 11, 2018 16:56:19 GMT
Ok, brainstorming here. What about this:
Theme: Armored Corps 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Conquest - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 30)
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 6 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
The 2 suppression tankers get advance move, so with the conquest you have 16” of board denial and decent ranged infantry removal.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 12, 2018 5:50:51 GMT
I was entertaining similar ideas... Not sure about going all the way to Conquest for two reasons, one is that Raiders ignore the templates because they are blast typed and the other is the lower MAT is problematic.
I'm a bit down on Suppression Tankers though. Their Spray attack is great but the rest of the kit has meta issues. You really need two of them laying down covering fire in the same location to be effective, otherwise it's pretty easy to get angles around the single template. Then most of the common stuff still needs 7's or often higher to wound them with a POW 10. The templates would be decent into some Cryx lists, though Bane Knights can easily be ARM 18 and pretty much ignore it. Depends on their caster.
But the 2D3 shooting attack is almost completely useless thanks to Wraith Engines. Shooting at most Cryx lists tends to be pretty difficult. Viktor gets around a lot of it by setting things on fire, which by passes a bunch of their buffs.
So any way the double Suppressors might be good for the template and spray into enough match ups to be worth taking but I don't think you get enough out of Conquest. Is it worth taking Viktor? I dunno, Karchev doesn't really do anything to make it good...
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Post by Netherby on Jul 13, 2018 16:57:57 GMT
I'm thinking you potentially have to drop theme to really get a good answer...
[Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator [4] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [6] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [6] Alexia Ciannor & the Risen [10] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 13, 2018 17:09:46 GMT
The only thing I'd dedicate Karchev as is a paperweight...
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Post by Netherby on Jul 13, 2018 22:05:08 GMT
Yeah, but Sorscha 0 changes everything... She greatly improves his feat and gives you threat ranges a Khador heavy has no right to... Juggernauts with non-linear 13" threats charging for free and putting out all boosted damage rolls? That SHOULD give people nightmares!
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 14, 2018 1:29:03 GMT
If you want to drop the Jaws theme then next best one is WGK.
Consider: Karchev 84pt of jacks S0 2x min wgi 2x mortar
You'll get 4 advance moves on jacks and a decent number of contesting and shooting.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 14, 2018 7:01:10 GMT
The question is, how do you play the list into the various Cryx match ups? It needs to have at least a vague plan of how it's going to play into Raider spam, Bane spam, Orge spam and Slayer spam... If you want to be really complete then Ghost Pirate as well, but I think it's mostly safe not to worry about that one currently.
So each one presents some unique problems, but there can be some overlap in solutions.
Raiders: Fast 2" reach, High DEF, High MAT, good attack volume, Blast Immune, large model count and Feedback damage from hitting your 'jacks. Minimum MAT 7, RAT 9 is required to hit them without boosting, so our shooting is mostly out including Karchev spray. Weakness is low ARM and low native P+S, so they will require caster support to crack armour. Solutions are auto hitting non-blast typed damage (covering fire, vent steam), Marshalled 'jacks do not suffer Feedback and if you can prevent the big ticket debuffs landing they struggle to do significant damage (Orin is the only real option and only protects a small area).
Banes: Average MAT with access to fixers, average DEF, good to high ARM, all varieties hit like a ton of bricks. ARM makes them close to blast immune and prowl makes shooting them difficult. Karchev spray is reasonably effective here, bypassing tough and prowl while being strong enough to break ARM unless they have stacked additional buffs. POW 10 shooting is generally ineffective though and depending on caster Knights can often mostly ignore Covering fire (needing 9's to wound them). Their only real weaknesses are below average SPD and only average MAT. They have MAT fixers, but they can't be everywhere. Solutions are POW 12+ shooting with stealth removal, lots of high DEF and anything that prevents them from charging (clouds, spells, feats, jamming).
Ogres: Not actually as problematic (in my opinion) as the others, these lists are great at killing tons of infantry, putting clouds everywhere and randomly being stealth. Decent DEF and ARM with tough everywhere and 5 boxes on a lot of stuff. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but I think you can just have a decent game into it with Karchev any way?
Slayers: Lot's of boxes with decent ARM and DEF. Highly resilient to shooting with excessive threat ranges and decent attack volume. Weaknesses are focus hungry, with sub-par P+S outside of the combo strike. While very scenario dominate it actually lacks many options for scoring non-jack elements which can potentially be exploited if you remove them. Karchev should already have decent answers to let you play a game into it, you just need to have the ability to contest enough to not lose on scenario while having enough beef to get up on attrition. The question is if you can fit in the tools you need to deal with the other lists while still keeping enough beef to take on Slayers...
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