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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 2, 2018 17:42:51 GMT
I've brought up both Karchev and boogieman lists in the past. The consesus seems to be Karchev is not all that great and Cryx is Khador's biggest boogieman.
I've been dojoing a Karchev drop into cryx. With S0 coming out I think Karchev in Jawz can bring all the tools to combat multiple Cryx lists. My knowledge comes from playing the lists about once each and watching the 2018 iron gauntlet. Let me know what i'm missing.
Black industries
-Lots of slayers, Arm 19/21
-Agressively takes control points
-Strong vs shooting
-Can play scenario and attrition well
-Strong feat/assassination turn
Dark Host
-incorporeal battle engines
-Hard hitting infantry
-stealth/incorp solos
-recursion
Ghost fleet
-Recursion
-Incorp/stealth abound
-lots of shooting
-Armor debuffs a plenty
Slaughter Fleet
-I know little to nothing here, have not heard a lot of talk.
And the Karchev list.
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - PC: 4
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Kodiak - PC: 13
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0
- Destroyer - PC: 14
Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 0
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf
---
GENERATED : 07/02/2018 13:41:51
BUILD ID : 2067.18-06-10
The karchev list has access to magical weapons on every model via feat & A+H. Karchev's reloadable spray 10 magical gun can also be effective. The list does lack RFP, but that seems to be Khador in general. Butcher3 could fill this role, but the list might hurt for points.
The Jack load out is all heavy hitters, except S0's. I think juggernauts can trade well with slayers and take out battle engines alike. With S0 and feat they are hitting pretty hard with minimal focus investment. As well, if you get road to war off you can out threat slayers, 14" if im doing my math right. Cryx seems prone to bringing easy to pick off solos. And slayers will definitely need to commit atleast 2 to take out a juggernaut.
The kayazy will be strong into slayer spam, presenting a def 15 road block for our juggernauts. They wil be decent infantry clear in Darkhost and ghost fleet.
The list is missing WMM, mechanics, and forge seers. Not sure how to include them, but they are definitely missed.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 2, 2018 17:54:19 GMT
So Malakov1 is a placeholder for S0?
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 2, 2018 18:00:37 GMT
Lots of Banes and Slayer spam is usually his boogie men, mainly because Karchev likes 7-9 jacks with him and they are those lists favourite opponent.
With S0 you might have better game against the Slayers.
Sure, alot depends on the scenarios and your opponent.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 2, 2018 18:08:38 GMT
So Malakov1 is a placeholder for S0? Yea, for now until she is actually released. Lots of Banes and Slayer spam is usually his boogie men, mainly because Karchev likes 7-9 jacks with him and they are those lists favourite opponent. With S0 you might have better game against the Slayers. Sure, alot depends on the scenarios and your opponent. I can see banes liking jacks, which is where the karchev spray, widowmakers, and kayazy come in. Kayazy a little bit with slayers too. But why do slayers like big beefy targets? POW 16 with 3 attacks, or 1 POW 22 and a POW 16? that is after eating through def 15 infantry. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 2, 2018 21:29:15 GMT
You don't need A&H. The whole point of using Karchev as Cryx drop is that you can kill BE on feat and can spray solos with Karchev himself.
I would just take usual max jack list with main points being:
- you absolutely need repairs so they won't nickel and dime Karchev to death
- Kodiaks are better than Juggs because they negate def on both satyxis and their jacks if any of those gets dropped into you
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
[Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30]
- Devastator [14]
- Devastator [14]
- Kodiak [13]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)]
- Kodiak [13]
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)]
- Rager [10]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
As for Slayerspam you just bet on punching power of 2 journeymen and Karchev feat winning the attrition exchange.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 2, 2018 21:33:33 GMT
Lots of Banes and Slayer spam is usually his boogie men, mainly because Karchev likes 7-9 jacks with him and they are those lists favourite opponent. With S0 you might have better game against the Slayers. Sure, alot depends on the scenarios and your opponent. I am not sure there isn't a good lesson to be learned about playing Karchev with a jack heavy build into slayer spam in the IG final. I TOTALLY get that Kayazy (and kossites?) are NOT crabbits and Swarm but I think there was some very good play of using them as "road blocks" to deny trampling landing pads and make it hard for Gaspy to get an effective alpha. He still engaged but it wasn't with great effectiveness, allowing Grymkin a much better Manifest Destiny counter. |
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 2, 2018 22:41:06 GMT
Took some of the ideas to heart. I really did want to include some mechanics, but i chose the WMM over a forge seer. No andrei though, i could see having him be decent.
Leaving the kayazy, def 15 will cause trouble for slayers, and something to keep banes playing fair.
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - PC: 4
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Devastator - PC: 14
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0
- Marauder - PC: 11
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf
---
GENERATED : 07/02/2018 18:39:10
BUILD ID : 2067.18-06-10
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Post by Netherby on Jul 3, 2018 4:25:38 GMT
You definitely need the Assassins in the list. Pure jack spam is exactly what Cryx want to see. You're unlikely to trigger RtW against Slayer spam when it matters early, so you're going to better off going in with Battle Charged and switching to open up later game assassination runs. You need the assassins to block the alpha as much as possible. Even if you can't fully prevent them trampling in, their damage is highly muted if they are forced to trample. You will also get the damage rolling started with some counter charges. I'm pretty sure a Banes list still just ruins your day though  |
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 3, 2018 10:04:12 GMT
Slayer spam likes Karchev jack spam because they usually get the alpha (as said RtW is hard to get) and that is enough to tilt the game. They are also better in scenario. Screening units help both in denying the alpha and scenario, but means less jacks after the (most likely) alpha and more soul tokens for Gasby3. Not saying it doesn't work, just saying it might not help enough. Also giving soul tokens is bad for business. S0 will change the game imo, we Khador might get the alpha... Can't wait  |
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Post by Netherby on Jul 3, 2018 10:33:12 GMT
I just feel that the Slayer spam is actually your best match up with Karchev and it's still an up hill battle. Your stuff is just going to melt against Ghost Fleet and Dark Host while Raiders are going to hammer you with Feedback damage... I mean prove me wrong by all means  |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 3, 2018 11:55:36 GMT
Everything gets alpha against Karchev, that's why I always bring Devastators and they never dissapoint. There are easy ways to get rid of def 15 Kayazi, there are no easy ways to remove Devastators, they will have to commit heavies/big units and all they committed will die next turn.
If Kayazi are to stay then Widowmakers must go. 8 jacks is the norm, Kayazi take place of 1 jack, should have 7 jacks left.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 3, 2018 14:41:52 GMT
What about swapping the assassins for a Alexia1/Valachev combo? Not as durable as Kayazy but undead, would be able to use Alexia’s Dominate Undead at times and thrall missiles are always cool.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 3, 2018 17:33:34 GMT
What about swapping the assassins for a Alexia1/Valachev combo? Not as durable as Kayazy but undead, would be able to use Alexia’s Dominate Undead at times and thrall missiles are always cool. Not a terrible idea, i did just pick her up and was looking for a place to squeeze her. Valachev im not sure about. The only problem i see is no easy source of new souls. |
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 3, 2018 18:13:41 GMT
I just feel that the Slayer spam is actually your best match up with Karchev and it's still an up hill battle. Your stuff is just going to melt against Ghost Fleet and Dark Host while Raiders are going to hammer you with Feedback damage... I mean prove me wrong by all means I don't think Ghost Fleet is a problem for Karchev and 8 jacks, never got to play against it in its heights though. To many boxes and mostly construct models, with "easy access" to magical attacks. Throw in a few devastators (a must almost now without S0) and way to much ARM for GF imo. Devas got one weakness against Slayers, you can throw them back and in the way, and again slowing down the rest of the jacks. Granted in one tourney my opponent failed like 3 times in a row to throw it with 2 dice against my one |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 8, 2018 23:23:45 GMT
So let’s be honest and admit this exercise doesn’t really work until Sorscha 0 comes out, which I am betting happens at Gen Con for pre-release. (Fingers, toes, and other body parts crossed.)
So how about this?
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev's 7 Jaws - Double Elims
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Sorscha 0 - PC: 0
- Rager - PC: 10
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
You have to cover a Banespam matchup, so I think you need the Widowmakers, and double Elims with Side Step can still pump out 8 attacks. Also, too many cryx casters can easily disable one unit, so I am super skeptical about investing all your infantry marbles in the Kayazy Assassins. The Eliminators are also a bonafide threat to jacks.
Thoughts?
(Getting more excited about S0!)
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