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Post by sand20go on Jun 22, 2018 4:12:04 GMT
So today was one of those games where I asked myself "Why did I not stay home and enjoy listening to a cool new pod cast?" nights [Protip - "American Fiasco" is just about the best thing since sliced bread if you like soccer and British Humor] Now Juris just usually crushes me but tonight it was one of those horrific match ups. My Strakov1 list because it is fun into Seige1 with Gravediggers. Tonights enjoyment was watcing FOUR grevious wounds (double express crew plus double master gunners) shots go out each turn on my jacks follow up by lots and lots of shooting and seige getting to call out columns because of Lynss. I tried to be cagey but clearly failed.. One of those "I move around for about 10 minutes; Juris spends the next 30 rolling dice and calling out damage" THis is becoming "unfun". So what are people running into gravedigger? Yeah - I should just bite the f'ing bullet and get Victor. I am being cheap but at this point it might be $100 for my sanity. For those counting at home list A is what I usually lose to and then List B was tonights "unfun". (For the record Juris believes OW2 is among the best answer (and may be the only one). I guess option "2" is something like Sorscha1 - looking to punish an infantry heavy build and then hope (Beast?) to survive the triumph shot.) conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0Fid9Gicamif9uieieal8MayiNiha1igig9UCygnar Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers [Brisbane 2] Colonel Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Ironclad [12] - Triumph [18] Captain Maxwell Finn [6] Patrol Dog [2] Ragman [4] Trench Buster [0(5)] Trench Buster [0(5)] Trencher Master Gunner [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Captain Jonas Murdoch [4] Trencher Commandos (max) [15] - Trencher Commando Officer [4] - Trencher Commando Scattergunner (2) [4] Trencher Express Team [0(5)] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0F919Eicaminif9uieiealalk8a4a3igigikilCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers [Brisbane 1] Major Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Defender [16] - Triumph [18] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Commander Anson Hitch [4] Patrol Dog [2] Ragman [4] Trench Buster [5] Trench Buster [5] Trencher Master Gunner [4] Trencher Master Gunner [4] Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5] Rangers [9] Trencher Cannon Crew [0(6)] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Express Team [0(5)] Trencher Long Gunners (max) [18] - Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4]
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 22, 2018 5:36:11 GMT
It isn't but with one you will often windmill slam the matchup. It's primary use is actually psychological and clock pressure to position troops right more than just raw killing power. It's general value is often in fire bombing the key solos in a matchup, forcing early mini feats from Long Gunners and generally being a bully for just showing up. The Assault Chariot replicates a lot of what it brings and is good for the Commando builds in the bargain.
Also, what the hell is that Siege 1 list and how did you lose to it -_-
It's kinda both beautiful and terrible at the same time. And missing Caine 0 who really digs the boot into the lists that I feel you'd want Siege 1 to counter.
Anyway, regardless, Victor also just is really flexible and means you can take a list like Iron Fangs or Doomies, splash him in and now have 60+ points of melee pressure backed up by a legitimate, self contained shooting phase.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 22, 2018 10:33:13 GMT
Yes. <heavy breathing>
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Post by Netherby on Jun 22, 2018 11:57:07 GMT
Mandatory? No... But like, what are you running INSTEAD of Viktor?
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Post by auraco on Jun 22, 2018 12:05:30 GMT
I wouldn't say it's mandatory, but it's a really good tool in the match up. Somethin else that's a good tool is the fun carriage, it's not as good as a victor but it's still pretty good. The commandoes are not immune to blast unless siege feats defensively and if you manage to get him to feat defensively you're in buisness. With spd 8 and repo 3 you can usually do some work without staying in aiming range of dangerous things like trencher long gunners. It also mostly doesn't care about express team, sure it will take some damage but no push or crit knockdown on a battle engine. It's also tanky enough to survive a couple of turn of gravedigger shooting if you are careful to stay out of trencher buster's charge range, which is not that hard to do with the crater AOE.
OW2 is also very good in the match up, I also don't think Strakhov1 is a good solution, as much as I love strakhov1 he needs good targets to trigger overrun at range and gravedigger just doesn't offer that, he also doesn't really like getting shot and gravedigger has a lot of shooting.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 22, 2018 12:25:30 GMT
If it shoots, apply mows or devastators.
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Post by thematsjo on Jun 22, 2018 12:44:08 GMT
How good is Sorscha3's feat for enclosing a unit in clouds and killing them on their turn?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 22, 2018 13:03:26 GMT
Why not to use a pair of Man-o-War Suppression Tankers? Then you can make a virtual barricade. Only anti-armor ranged weapons are able to work against them so you can send your warjacks safely meanwhile. Only one or two Ragers can ensures the wall will not fall against the enemy anti armor gun as well.
Also remember that push effect is simply ignored by a model B2B with the big ones. Express Rifle only has push, NOT slam.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 22, 2018 13:12:25 GMT
What about a Conquest to lay two 2 x 4" AOEs of High Explosive covering fire?
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 22, 2018 14:40:57 GMT
Greylords
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Post by auraco on Jun 22, 2018 16:17:38 GMT
I think that’s a terrible idea, using greylords mean going wolves of winter and wolves is a glass canon theme that doesn’t like seeing shooting on the other side of the table and gravediggers is pretty much a shooting theme. Sure the greylord can ignore cover but they are outthreated by the guns in gravediggers.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 22, 2018 16:36:15 GMT
It isn't but with one you will often windmill slam the matchup. It's primary use is actually psychological and clock pressure to position troops right more than just raw killing power. It's general value is often in fire bombing the key solos in a matchup, forcing early mini feats from Long Gunners and generally being a bully for just showing up. The Assault Chariot replicates a lot of what it brings and is good for the Commando builds in the bargain. Also, what the hell is that Siege 1 list and how did you lose to it -_- It's kinda both beautiful and terrible at the same time. And missing Caine 0 who really digs the boot into the lists that I feel you'd want Siege 1 to counter. Anyway, regardless, Victor also just is really flexible and means you can take a list like Iron Fangs or Doomies, splash him in and now have 60+ points of melee pressure backed up by a legitimate, self contained shooting phase. You can't take Caine0 in Gravediggers. You can't take Express Teams in Heavy Metal or Sons of the Tempest. Express Teams are what make the list good. He lost because I took out cortex on all of his Jacks and kept them crippled with Grievous.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 22, 2018 16:36:33 GMT
Between OW2 and the Koldun Lords the gravediggers have maybe 3 guns on the table that can actually fire.
Or you go the zerkova2 route and just wipe them all off the table on feat turn.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 22, 2018 17:44:06 GMT
Hey San, just a suggestion, I think you should start taking pictures and writing Battle Reports. I notice every time you get face stomped you come here looking for a Magic Bullet solution. When in reality your list are probably just fine. That at least would give the rest of us more context, instead of just trying to come up with Hard Counters.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 22, 2018 18:11:43 GMT
Hey San, just a suggestion, I think you should start taking pictures and writing Battle Reports. I notice every time you get face stomped you come here looking for a Magic Bullet solution. When in reality your list are probably just fine. That at least would give the rest of us more context, instead of just trying to come up with Hard Counters. For what it's worth, I felt that he did have counterplay and options. I did have a huge attrition lead when he conceded; he had a Juggernaut and a Grolar remaining, both with crippled cortex (he had lost Behemoth, a Destroyer, a Spriggan, all of his Widowmakers and the Marksman; I had lost two Trencher Long Gunners, almost all of my Rangers, my Cannon Crew, and a Trench Buster; score was 5 to 2, top of 4 on his turn). However, the attrition lead might not have been quite so large if I hadn't made a tough check on one of my Trencher Express Team Gunners on top of 2 (2 fewer Grievous Wounds shots on bottom of 2 might have made a difference). That said, I was afraid with Siege all game (as a warcaster normally is when playing against an over-run army). During Round 2, I feated and Ground-pounded his Juggernaut and his Grolar, taking out cortex on each. I had to leave Siege within Superiority + Feat +Over-run range of his Behemoth. I did have models in the way that he would have to clear out first, and I'm not sure if he fully did the math on that assassination run; in all likelihood it was implausible (he had Grolar Shooting, a Marksman, and Strakhov to kill the models in the way, and I don't think Strakhov was positioned optimally to cast Superiority onto Behemoth and trigger Overrun and get Siege in the feat), but that would have been his best opportunity to win the game if it was possible at all. Big picture: I don't think Strakhov is your Cygnar drop. I don't know what he's good into (probably a lot of stuff), but Gravediggers and Haley2 are not his preferred dance partners. I keep telling Sand to play OW2. She gives Cygnar a good game. Maybe he'll listen this time? =)
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