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Post by Havock on Jun 12, 2018 15:40:43 GMT
Because of reasons (I'm a special snowflake who doesn't want to slot in Irusk) I am looking into running her into this list. Why? For the same reasons she runs Legion well in her own way: MoW are utterly obnoxious behind a cloudwall, allowing the list to fully to its counterpunchy strength. Ghost Walk helps with not needing pathfinder.
The clouds mean a lot of would-be predators of this list can piss right off. Can't charge what you can't see. And weaponmasters are decidedly less scary at 3d6 than 4d6.
First up:
Beefy list, three full units can put down the hurt. Only a modest ranged presence, Ragman helps cracking problematic shells.
Only one Kovnik hurts, though it might be less of an issue with the cloudwall and ghost walk to give myself breathing room.
One supression tanker down and no ragman, and the bombardiers hit even less hard in a scrap... But I can now "peekaboo" from behind the clouds, throwing down a fair amount of firepower downrange -a substantial increase in pew from list 1- and an extra source of desperate pace (which could be swapped for Ragman by the way). The single point could be shoved into "upgrading" a Destroyer into a Decimator, which would save me some bucks; also shoving models toeing in the zone away can win you games.
And there's a list with only two real units but including Victor and two Drakhuns but I feel that detracts from the strength of the list, which involves shoving a mountain of miserable big beefy mandudes on the table and see my opponent clock himself trying to kill them without charging or shooting them. So let's focus on these lists for now.
I feel Ragman is sort of needed to bump up the P+S; 14/16/17 might simply not cut it against some of the brickier lists, the fact he also brings a bone shaker to get rid of annoying spooky solos is also a plus.
Ideas, suggestions and/or views?
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 12, 2018 16:37:07 GMT
I would definitely keep ragman
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Post by sand20go on Jun 12, 2018 16:41:13 GMT
What about we go hard core with list Number 2 and lose Drakhun for Eliminators (to help with contesting and scenario pace) and my favorite odd ball in DemoCorp, dirty meg? Here we are going to simply abuse the heck out of Stall - using it to get the armor cracking that you want. You can then use the 2 points to upgrade both destroyers to decimators. You already have AOE's with the bombers and you have an equal 18 inch threat. You can then REALLY play the game I think Zerkova wants to play - scenario.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 17:15:18 GMT
What about we go hard core with list Number 2 and lose Drakhun for Eliminators (to help with contesting and scenario pace) and my favorite odd ball in DemoCorp, dirty meg? Here we are going to simply abuse the heck out of Stall - using it to get the armor cracking that you want. You can then use the 2 points to upgrade both destroyers to decimators. You already have AOE's with the bombers and you have an equal 18 inch threat. You can then REALLY play the game I think Zerkova wants to play - scenario. Against Warjacks, having stationary on a 3 point solo's gun is great, and bringing a Talon for 7 points to have a melee Stall is good as well. The question is one of opportunity cost. For instance, would it not be more profitable to bring Gorman or Hutchuck and Rust those warjacks more reliably than Meg's gun, and spend the remainder on other points? What about Ragman? Weaponmaster POW 16 Demo Corps are excellent, but so are POW18 Demo Corps. |
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Post by auraco on Jun 12, 2018 17:31:46 GMT
I think I would rather have ragman, sure stall makes it easier to trigger stationnary for demo corps, but it only works on non colossal jacks, that is limiting considering, beasts, battle engine and colossals in the mix.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 12, 2018 17:43:47 GMT
What about we go hard core with list Number 2 and lose Drakhun for Eliminators (to help with contesting and scenario pace) and my favorite odd ball in DemoCorp, dirty meg? Here we are going to simply abuse the heck out of Stall - using it to get the armor cracking that you want. You can then use the 2 points to upgrade both destroyers to decimators. You already have AOE's with the bombers and you have an equal 18 inch threat. You can then REALLY play the game I think Zerkova wants to play - scenario. Against Warjacks, having stationary on a 3 point solo's gun is great, and bringing a Talon for 7 points to have a melee Stall is good as well. The question is one of opportunity cost. For instance, would it not be more profitable to bring Gorman or Hutchuck and Rust those warjacks more reliably than Meg's gun, and spend the remainder on other points? What about Ragman? Weaponmaster POW 16 Demo Corps are excellent, but so are POW18 Demo Corps. To me it is distance. Yes. Meg _IS_ RAT 5 and that is, well, not good. But she can apply it from 10 inches away, allowing her possibly to do it AGAIN in the future. Gorman and especially Hut are EXPENSIVE. In both instances (rust or stationary) we don't work against Hordes. Nor Huge. So I think it then a question of what are we trying to do - and in my mind it is abuse her capacity for scenario play. but those kinds of quibbles are deep in the weeds. I think the story is that you need a merc (or 3) to help tune Z1 up a bit since she doesn't have an arm fix. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 12, 2018 18:56:05 GMT
I may be crazy, but I would make room for an additional Drakhun. Sometimes the only way the opponent can engage your stuff is to literally walk, or even move a sacrificial targeting beacon into the Clouds. Plenty of opportunities for the Drakhuns to Counter Charge, or at the very least, Threat the Counter Charge and keep your opponent on his side of the Cloud Wall.
Zerkova_1 doesn't need to saturate the board with bodies, since cloud walls reduce the casualty list on the approach greatly, so having more High Value pieces waiting is not a terrible idea.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 19:48:32 GMT
Against Warjacks, having stationary on a 3 point solo's gun is great, and bringing a Talon for 7 points to have a melee Stall is good as well. The question is one of opportunity cost. For instance, would it not be more profitable to bring Gorman or Hutchuck and Rust those warjacks more reliably than Meg's gun, and spend the remainder on other points? What about Ragman? Weaponmaster POW 16 Demo Corps are excellent, but so are POW18 Demo Corps. To me it is distance. Yes. Meg _IS_ RAT 5 and that is, well, not good. But she can apply it from 10 inches away, allowing her possibly to do it AGAIN in the future. Gorman and especially Hut are EXPENSIVE. In both instances (rust or stationary) we don't work against Hordes. Nor Huge. So I think it then a question of what are we trying to do - and in my mind it is abuse her capacity for scenario play. but those kinds of quibbles are deep in the weeds. I think the story is that you need a merc (or 3) to help tune Z1 up a bit since she doesn't have an arm fix. Well, the Rust change just went through, so Rust does work on all constructs. This means construct warbeasts like Wolds, most battle engines (Animatarax and Throne excluded), several types of infantry, several warcasters and warlocks, some solos, and also objectives. |
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Post by Havock on Jun 12, 2018 21:00:23 GMT
I may be crazy, but I would make room for an additional Drakhun. Sometimes the only way the opponent can engage your stuff is to literally walk, or even move a sacrificial targeting beacon into the Clouds. Plenty of opportunities for the Drakhuns to Counter Charge, or at the very least, Threat the Counter Charge and keep your opponent on his side of the Cloud Wall. Zerkova_1 doesn't need to saturate the board with bodies, since cloud walls reduce the casualty list on the approach greatly, so having more High Value pieces waiting is not a terrible idea. Aye, I could ditch the second Demo Corps for a Drakhun and a Kovnik/Forge Seer/Strike Tanker/Kayazy Eliminators (or Ayana & Holt :v). I feel it would be a sidegrade rather than strict upgrade however, having that extra unit can put a lot of pressure on whatever punch my opponent can muster. It's a lot of beef that can leapfrog through whatever you throw in front of it via Tactician and Ghost Walk. |
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Post by Netherby on Jun 13, 2018 5:55:07 GMT
I wouldn't rely too heavily on cloud wall to make the list function. It's common enough in the meta that people will have answers for it in their lists. AC also mostly misses out on half the benefit of Z1 clouds, which is the DEF increase. It's effective on the Dragos Demo unit, but that's about it...
Z1 is good, but her strengths lay in denying the alpha and preventing shooting so that you can get good positions and hopefully hit first. Once that's done she doesn't have a lot to offer other than buffing DEF with the clouds. So you need to build to exploit those strengths as much as possible.
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Post by Havock on Jun 13, 2018 6:03:02 GMT
I know, I have been playing her in LoS for a while; but having cloud tech alone won't help you if it's kitted to deal with, say, trenchers. And she still has ghost walk and a baller feat.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 13, 2018 7:38:45 GMT
I wonder if you need Atanas? You have much better pathfinder on a stick, and I don't think the rest of the kit is worth 7 points. That lets you get that second Kovnik easily.
I wouldn't drop Ragman; that damage boost is excellent.
This might be one list where I think Dragos is actually a good idea; Def14 is a pretty annoying level.
Personally, I still think the Bombardiers are not worth the points, but give it a whirl and let the forum know! Same with the Drakhun; it feels a bit too pricey these days
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Post by Netherby on Jun 13, 2018 8:45:36 GMT
I don't think Atanas is brining all that much to the list either and Drakhuns just seem way too expensive these days...
Looking at the first list I would look at changing it around to something like this:
[Zerkova 1] Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28]
- Conquest [35]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Ragman [4]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
- Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 13, 2018 9:24:43 GMT
I think it should be 2x bombers, 1x demos+Drago, 2x supressors, 1x Conquest+repairs. You just shoot things dead and protect yourself with bunch of no-go and no-see zones backed up by complete shutdown feat. Most certainly no Drakhun, that countercharge alone is not worth 9pt. If you want a good contester in a mow list, take elims for 5. Probably no shocks, I honestly don't see a use for them here. What are you shieldwalling against that can go through clouds, covering fire and Z1 feat? Would that hypothetical thing even care about arm 21 at that point? Ragman may stay, he's both incorp solo hunter and damage buffer if people decide to just bumrush and jam your ranged dudes. Another decent option here is Bailoch, he hunts incorp very well and provides stable ranged damage against armored models. The upside over Ragman is that Ragman is only useful when matchup ends up going to melee brawl, which isn't every matchup.
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jun 13, 2018 10:00:28 GMT
Ive been running this: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T7bkTkUl5l59uch7Ml77Qgd7Qgd___-0x7a7qkW7s7skTkThF7plOkT8r8ychKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Zerkova 1] Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Marauder [11] - Spriggan [17] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Ragman [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [0(4)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Between the cloud walls and feat people really struggle to take down the ST's. I feel that you NEED ragman in this list to help crack armour as Zerk has no buffs for the MOW. Are you guys actually running Drakhuns with her? They seem soo expensive for what they do. |
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