Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 5, 2018 8:34:19 GMT
The game has too many barriers of entry/maintenance. Absurdly expensive, unnecessarily complicated. I wouldn't agree that the game is unnecessarily complicated. Everything is quite logical, but you do need to know the rules. While some of the basic concepts are easy to understand, try asking your players how Throws exactly work or how Field Promotion works with complex units or what are the limitations of being able to channel spells, or what Incorporeal is immune to and what it isn't or in what aspects Battle Engines and Colossals work differently, even though they share a plethora of own exceptions.
The power attack rules themseves have 4 pages. Some pretty excellent boardgames with great strategic gameplay have not many more pages of rules IN TOTAL.
How much time will you spend explainig the rules of WM&H to a newbie compared to, say, Caverna or Terra Mystica, or Scythe, or Food Chain Magnate, or Dominant Species? And those titles are considered "heavy" and "demanding". Even if it takes half an hour to explain EVERYTHING, including the tiniest minutae in those games, how many things, exceptions you'd have to ommit from basic rules if you were to spend only half an hour explaining WM&H?
That's what new players see.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 5, 2018 8:54:32 GMT
While the ruleset is undoubtedly complex, this particular industry (tabletop miniature games) has no shortage of complex games that are thriving, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about that facet. Board games I do not see as direct competitors to WM, any more than computer games.
It's areas that WMH is losing out to direct competitors (GW, Wyrd, FF, Corvus Belli...) that I think need to be looked at closely, which is why I always come back to price and themes.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Jun 5, 2018 8:56:38 GMT
I agree with faelinWaiting forever for new stuff for your faction is terrible. That is why the veterans lose interest. No more PG also gets the blame from my part. No one promotes the game anymore, haven't seen a new player in years. Years PP, years. Good job canning that program, when is the new improved version coming out??
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 5, 2018 9:24:23 GMT
Something I've noticed when I'm in my LGS (admittedly rarely these days) is that there is always a lot of chatter about the small hybrid games; things like Blood Bowl and Necromunda which are kind of like board games and miniature games in one.
I guess PP is moving in the same direction with Company of Iron and Monsterpocalype; it'll be interesting to see if they capture people's attention.
Didn't PP used to have loads of other games too? High Command, Level 7, and Infernal Contraption? Whatever happened to them?
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Post by dogganmguest on Jun 5, 2018 9:31:10 GMT
Whatever happened to them? The same thing happening to this game in many areas, but with a lot more general agreement. When no-one wants to play it, owning High Command doesn't do you much good.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 5, 2018 10:29:12 GMT
While the ruleset is undoubtedly complex, this particular industry (tabletop miniature games) has no shortage of complex games that are thriving, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about that facet. Board games I do not see as direct competitors to WM, any more than computer games. It is different with people I know and used to play with. Board games pulled them ALL away from WM&H, because nowadays said board games offer intellectual/competitive challenge at least similar and often better than WM&H but at the fraction of the cost in money, preparation effort and required memorisation.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 5, 2018 10:53:08 GMT
Whatever happened to them? The same thing happening to this game in many areas, but with a lot more general agreement. When no-one wants to play it, owning High Command doesn't do you much good. It's actually a good game and a decent deck builder. The problem with those kind of games is that it generally isn't able to keep interest game after game after game. This is actually something I expect from every board game: while fun, you will generally only play it a handful of times before moving on to another game, and then maybe occasionally drift back to it. Cyel is this not a problem for the people you mention? Don't they buy a new game every month or so?
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 5, 2018 11:06:45 GMT
I find I have very different groups of friends that play board games versus tabletop mini games.
My older (I don't mean their age, I mean how long I've known them - these are all friends of 20+ years) mates who just want to play something and catch up on the week's events in our lives play board games. While everyone wants to win (and is pretty cut-throat about it) it's still very much a pastime while we chat and drink. Hell, when playing Puerto Rico, half the night gets taken up debating everyone's options during their turn.
The tabletop gamers take things a little more seriously, being prepared to take the time to prepare and paint minis; build lists and plot strategies before the game night begins, something virtually inconceivable to the board gaming crowd.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 5, 2018 11:08:41 GMT
Yes, new games appear, but we often find that they disappear (get sold) quickly again. The thing is, not many of them bring much new in terms of theme/mechanics, so we usually prefer to go back to trusted ones, rather than learn new ones to get mostly the same experience anyway.
Some of our group have more than 100 (possibly much more!) playthroughs of such excellent games like Age of Empires3, Imperial, Agricola and are ALWAYS ready for more. A new and fresh hit (like Food Chain Magnate recently) which is likely to join this group of evergreens for dozens of games happens very rarely.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 5, 2018 11:20:23 GMT
Yes, new games appear, but we often find that they disappear (get sold) quickly again. The thing is, not many of them bring much new in terms of theme/mechanics, so we usually prefer to go back to trusted ones, rather than learn new ones to get mostly the same experience anyway. Some of our group have more than 100 (possibly much more!) playthroughs of such excellent games like Age of Empires3, Imperial, Agricola and are ALWAYS ready for more. A new and fresh hit (like Food Chain Magnate recently) which is likely to join this group of evergreens for dozens of games happens very rarely. We are pretty much the same. While new games are great every now and then, we always find ourselves returning to the great staples (in our case Catan; Puerto Rico; Munchkin; and recently Viticulture)
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jun 5, 2018 11:27:25 GMT
The game has too many barriers of entry/maintenance. Absurdly expensive, unnecessarily complicated. I wouldn't agree that the game is unnecessarily complicated. Everything is quite logical, but you do need to know the rules. The core game is quite easy to explain and grasp in my opinion, especially if you have a wargaming background. There are a lot of nuances indeed, but those are well explained in the rules. The game is definitely on the decline though, in Europe (at least on my side of it) this is partly because of supply issues. Another, probably big, part of it is definitely cost of entry, visibility/marketing and theme machine (which ties in with cost) In September the WTC is coming to your country, so we'll see what happens there. The solo masters are definitely the smallest they've ever been, but that's partly to make room for Guild Ball. Im not sure the bit about the WTC solo's is true. I know lots of people who have paid their deposit and have not been added to the player list or received any confirmation and that's just for the UK guys.
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Post by GumbaFish on Jun 5, 2018 11:44:42 GMT
I agree with Cyel's points about accessibility etc... I see large groups of players locally jumping on board things like x-wing, Star Wars Legion, Shadespire, and even Runewars. These games offer a much smaller barrier from initial purchase to playing the game and enjoying it due to fewer models, simplified rules, and in the case of x-wing lack of assembly. I think it is just inevitable that a game as involved as Warmachine presents a much easier route for players to leave than it does to enter the game. It takes a long time to get into the game and there are tons of reasons why a person might never fully get into the game or that veterans may leave. The complexity of the game also means that its harder to just pick things back up and get in an occasional game here and there compared to something like board games that require no outside preparation.
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Post by challenger on Jun 5, 2018 11:46:12 GMT
From my observations of people who have had serious problems one thing is present above others - CID
basically CID makes themes and releases be at a new power standard. This is a level older things dont stand at. Its not innacurate to say the majority of competitive lists we see these days are the results of CID
cygnar diggers, cryx black industries, grymkin, primal terrors, faithful masses etc. The list goes on
So for the casual player - they see two things. One is that they wont see an update to their faction except once every 12-24 months. Then the cid comes and goes and thatll be it until next time. In the meantime every other faction gets extremely powerfhl tools and new toys one at a time. Thats the second thing, that without their CID they wont have toys as good as a CID list. This kills enthusiasm big time. Out of the players ive spoken to who have left almost all of them echo something along these lines.
At least in the old books everyone got a toy on a regular basis. Which is much more friendly yo casual players who are the lifeblood of the game.
Personally ive accepted the good and the bad of CID because its a mixed bag. Im personally considering just chasing the mini factions that i like each year ans having a large collection of mini factions lol
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 5, 2018 11:54:24 GMT
The biggest barrier for new player acquisition and old player retention are costs. WMH used to be a game where you could slap together a list pair from whatever, it would probably suck, but the price of 2 lists was reasonable, especially compared to 40k, the other big wargame. Now you're basically forced to have 2 completely different armies to even start competing and PP model quality/cost ratio doesn't help. Tight rules and balance are what's keeping the game together enough for us "veterans" to still play it, but new player influx is practically nonexistant at least in my area.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 5, 2018 12:04:15 GMT
cygnar diggers, cryx black industries, grymkin, primal terrors, faithful masses etc. I don't think this tells the whole story. For one, Black Industries didn't go through CID, neither did things like Storm Division (except to tweak Stormlances) or Haley 2, which got nerfed. Harbinger is also inexplicably getting buffed through CID. The problem with CID in its current state is that they are still playing catch-up. Some factions are just lagging behind because they were overadjusted at the start of MK3, factions like Circle, Skorne and Legion. Others were touched on, like Cryx Thralls, but their theme (Infernal Machines) is still regarded as hot garbage. The problem is also partly that PP's threshold changes every cycle. For instance, a few factions had gotten their CID and they suddenly decide that Colossals need changing, pretty much guaranteeing that those faction's options won't be touched for a few more years.
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