Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224 
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Post by Zaku on May 17, 2018 22:33:15 GMT
Well, deciding to build a Khador force as a second army. I love the Winter Guard Kommand theme, and have alwayd wanted to use Butcher 1&2. The fact that they have the same Warjack Points I see as a plus to building a casual list I can plug either of them into. Here is what I came up with.
Butcher 1/2
-Ruin
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Wardog
Sorscha0
-Berserker
Max Winter Guard Rifle Corps
-3x Rocketeer
Max Winter Guard Rifle Corps
-3x Rocketeer
Winter Guard Artillery Kaptain
Min Battle Mechaniks
Min Battle Mechaniks
Free Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Free Kovnik Joe
The recent changes to the Berserker were a god send to this list idea, and the recent announcement of Sorscha0 gives The Butchers some decent threat extension. The point drops from the CID gave me some extra points, so two min units of Mechaniks seemed to be a decent fit to keep the 5 'jacks running.
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Post by jonnyboy on May 18, 2018 3:28:05 GMT
Sorscha0 puts Butcher1 in a really good spot! Rockets with B1 can hit pretty hard on the feat turn, same thing with a bunch of beserkera.
The biggest crimp i see is kovnik joe being free. Unless i missed something WGK can't make named solos free.
As for the mechanics, they're always on the border for me. I'm more willing to take them if I bring very pivitol or expensive jacks that need to do work. Like a ruin or behemoth, even then i might take many other things instead.
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Post by borderprince on May 18, 2018 5:11:26 GMT
jonnyboy's right that Joe can't be free in WGK.
I'd also really recommend a unit of WGI with UA over a unit of rifles. POW12 shooting leverages Butcher1's feat much more than POW10 rifles, by giving you a chance of actually doing some damage to enemy armour (I find that CRA to POW14 is what you need for both accuracy and hitting power). The reposition is also golden. For Butchers, the other benefit is that you often don't want WGRC to be moving foward, but you do want that for WGI and for Butcher, so it helps give him the protection he wants.
I'd think about something like this:
Butcher1/2
- Ruin
- Marauder (I had 3 points, and it was a choice between mechs and upgrading a Berserker. I chose the latter)
- Berserker
- Berserker
- War Dog (mainly in the list for when Butcher2 is running it, to be honest)
Max WGI + UA (free) + 3 rockets
Max WGRC + 3 rockets
WG Mortar (free)
Kayazy Eliminators (never a bad choice, and potentially very nasty with Butcher2's feat)
Sorscha0
- Berserker
Joe
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on May 18, 2018 5:14:28 GMT
jonnyboy's right that Joe can't be free in WGK. I'd also really recommend a unit of WGI with UA over a unit of rifles. POW12 shooting leverages Butcher1's feat much more than POW10 rifles, by giving you a chance of actually doing some damage to enemy armour (I find that CRA to POW14 is what you need for both accuracy and hitting power). The reposition is also golden. For Butchers, the other benefit is that you often don't want WGRC to be moving foward, but you do want that for WGI and for Butcher, so it helps give him the protection he wants. I'd think about something like this: Butcher1/2 - Ruin - Marauder (I had 3 points, and it was a choice between mechs and upgrading a Berserker. I chose the latter) - Berserker - Berserker - War Dog (mainly in the list for when Butcher2 is running it, to be honest) Max WGI + UA (free) + 3 rockets Max WGRC + 3 rockets WG Mortar (free) Kayazy Eliminators (never a bad choice, and potentially very nasty with Butcher2's feat) Sorscha0 - Berserker Joe Ohhhh. I totally missed that I can't take named solos for free. That is an easy change. Make the Artillery Kaptain free and make it so I just have a single max unit of Mechaniks. I thought about taking regular Infantry over a second unit of Rifle Corps, I just had miserable luck with the Infantry in Mk. II, now that the Rifle Corps also have Combined Ranged attack in Mk. III, I really see no reason to take the WGI. The 20 14" ranged rifle shots, and 6 14" rockets that ignore each other for LOS on the way in seem too good to pass up. The possibility of using that longer range and CRA's to clear charge lanes or pick out important solos had won me many games in Mk. II. |
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Post by borderprince on May 18, 2018 8:53:15 GMT
I thought about taking regular Infantry over a second unit of Rifle Corps, I just had miserable luck with the Infantry in Mk. II, now that the Rifle Corps also have Combined Ranged attack in Mk. III, I really see no reason to take the WGI. The 20 14" ranged rifle shots, and 6 14" rockets that ignore each other for LOS on the way in seem too good to pass up. The possibility of using that longer range and CRA's to clear charge lanes or pick out important solos had won me many games in Mk. II. You're right about their role. But think about whether you need 20 of those shots to do it, rather than just a single max unit. WM is a game that usually ends up at short range, and WGI are better there. Their guns are more powerful (which pairs well with Butcher1 ARM cracking) and the one-time-only sprays (with gunfighter!) can be incredible in some match-ups. They're a more flexible unit. But that flexibility does mean they're not always so easy to use. Yes the WGRC can CRA now, but they're starting from POW10 so need more contributors to get to higher POW. They're still fine at sniping solos or individual models in charge lanes. But they don't do so well at putting out damage on tougher models. That might be important for you with Butcher2 to help build up the rage tokens. Depends what you come up against with the list. I'd really suggest trying both. The WGI were the most frequently mentioned underrated unit in a short-lived discussion here a while ago. They might be better than you think. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 18, 2018 9:13:21 GMT
Double mechanics are excessive, you will have a hard time using even one unit.
I wouldn't take Kapitan here because there's not much use for him outside mortar.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on May 18, 2018 10:07:51 GMT
Double mechanics are excessive, you will have a hard time using even one unit. I wouldn't take Kapitan here because there's not much use for him outside mortar. Yeah, it looks like I am going to have to cut one unit anyways due to an oversight on my part. I still feel I can find a use for them with 5 'jacks on the table... Especially if they are the fragile Berserkers I thought about taking regular Infantry over a second unit of Rifle Corps, I just had miserable luck with the Infantry in Mk. II, now that the Rifle Corps also have Combined Ranged attack in Mk. III, I really see no reason to take the WGI. The 20 14" ranged rifle shots, and 6 14" rockets that ignore each other for LOS on the way in seem too good to pass up. The possibility of using that longer range and CRA's to clear charge lanes or pick out important solos had won me many games in Mk. II. You're right about their role. But think about whether you need 20 of those shots to do it, rather than just a single max unit. WM is a game that usually ends up at short range, and WGI are better there. Their guns are more powerful (which pairs well with Butcher1 ARM cracking) and the one-time-only sprays (with gunfighter!) can be incredible in some match-ups. They're a more flexible unit. But that flexibility does mean they're not always so easy to use. Yes the WGRC can CRA now, but they're starting from POW10 so need more contributors to get to higher POW. They're still fine at sniping solos or individual models in charge lanes. But they don't do so well at putting out damage on tougher models. That might be important for you with Butcher2 to help build up the rage tokens. Depends what you come up against with the list. I'd really suggest trying both. The WGI were the most frequently mentioned underrated unit in a short-lived discussion here a while ago. They might be better than you think. Totally fair on the Infantry vs Rifle Corps, I have a feeling that my dislike of the Infantry nowadays is just due to the fact I hate the restic models... And the old metals are just abysmal. I have found a few sources to get my hands on the metal Rifle Corps (absolutely fantastic sculpts), but I just can't bring myself to get the plastic Infantry. I will have to proxy up the Infantry a few times to get a better feel for them in Mk.III, it would probably allow me to use the Artillery Kaptain to better effect as well since the Infantry will HAVE to play more to the front anyways. Wonder how hard it would be to convert up metal Rifle Corps to be Infantry using the Infantry Officer's Blunderbuss. Thankfully that part is around $1 on the PP online store... Hmm. |
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Post by 3xhume on May 18, 2018 12:32:41 GMT
I know we are discussing casual list but i want to show my list that im planning to use for serious business.
War Room Army
Khador - Butcher1 - here comes the pain
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov - WJ: +28
- Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
- Berserker - PC: 8
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand
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Post by jonnyboy on May 18, 2018 15:52:34 GMT
3xhume, interesting list. Why victor with b3? I mean victor is the new khador hotness, but b3 doesn't bring too much to the table for the fella. I might also recommend making the WGI + UA a max unit to get yhe most out of the boat.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on May 19, 2018 2:07:53 GMT
3xhume, interesting list. Why victor with b3? I mean victor is the new khador hotness, but b3 doesn't bring too much to the table for the fella. I might also recommend making the WGI + UA a max unit to get yhe most out of the boat. That looks like Butcher1 |
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Post by 3xhume on May 19, 2018 4:24:26 GMT
Yes, its butcher1. I want to maximize the winterguard theme output. Victor with flare provides the needed accuracy for winterguard to hit high defense models such as trenchers in haley3 gravedigger theme. Aiyana n holt for magical attacks or just add +2 damage if the opponent plays an honest list.
During feat turn, this list has the tools to make sure we can hit opponent models and also hit hard. Possibly good for all comers list and focus on building second list for specific matchups. This list’s kryptonite? Maybe gaspy3 black industries just like all shooty list.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 1, 2018 7:24:10 GMT
So, the more I look at this Theme Force... The more strange it's Mercenaries limitations seem. I was dorking around with the idea of changing one of the WGRC units to just WG Infantry with UA and WA, and replacing the the Mechaniks with Saxon Orrick... Nope. No character solos... So none of the utility solos. How do you overcome the weaknesses of this list, like Pathfinder?
Really trying to make a decent list using this as the base;
Butcher1/2
-Ruin/Spriggan
-3x Berserker
-Wardog
Sorscha0
-Berserker
I already have 2 units of Rifle Corps now, a single Mortar Crew, and 3 Rocketeer. But nothing Winter Guard is set in stone.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 1, 2018 9:01:49 GMT
It is worth remembering that themes should have some deficiencies to make up for the bonuses...
That said, the biggest weaknesses are:
- No pathfinder - this is less of an issue for shooting units than for melee - you don't have to
close to the enemy so often or so quickly. Jacks are more likely to need
the pathfinder, and they can get that via Boundless Charge casters or
being Kodiaks. Worth remembering that the Gun Carriage has pathfinder
too, which is handy in a pinch as it can go through terrain making
impact attacks against skirmishing models quite effectively. - Dealing with stealth - used to be a real problem with no access to Reinholdt and the Spriggan and Victor were
overpriced/not good enough. Now you can include a Spriggan to address
it. - No magic weapons - A&H solve this, albeit in quite an expensive way.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jun 1, 2018 12:13:21 GMT
The no character solo thing was probably to stop us from taking Ragman...
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 3, 2018 5:10:11 GMT
It is worth remembering that themes should have some deficiencies to make up for the bonuses...
That said, the biggest weaknesses are:
- No pathfinder - this is less of an issue for shooting units than for melee - you don't have to
close to the enemy so often or so quickly. Jacks are more likely to need
the pathfinder, and they can get that via Boundless Charge casters or
being Kodiaks. Worth remembering that the Gun Carriage has pathfinder
too, which is handy in a pinch as it can go through terrain making
impact attacks against skirmishing models quite effectively. - Dealing with stealth - used to be a real problem with no access to Reinholdt and the Spriggan and Victor were
overpriced/not good enough. Now you can include a Spriggan to address
it. - No magic weapons - A&H solve this, albeit in quite an expensive way.
I agree that the lack of Pathfinder isn't so much a deal breaker since the infantry will mainly be shooting. It would have been nice if they gave a specific list of just a few Character Solos we could include. Thankfully with Sorscha0 coming out, it gives the list a bit more access to Pathfinder on single models. I don't plan on getting the Gun Carriage, I just have a distaste for using the big models. It doesn't bother me if my opponent uses them, I just don't like the Battle Engines and Gargantuans/Colossals. Dealing with Stealth has been a concern as well, but it looks like the Spriggan is viable enough to consider using, and the fact I can straight swap it with Ruin makes including it even easier now. Can't wait to get my Spriggan built. I was thinking of including A&H... But decided that Ruin will be enough to handle Incorporeal models for now, 12 points to make A&H count as Friendly Faction is too much for me. The no character solo thing was probably to stop us from taking Ragman... I am still fairly new to Mk.III and how things have changed, but would that have made this Theme too good? I have heard about the possible shenanigans that could have happened if this Theme had allowed Anastasia, but don't remember the main points they discussed as to why she would have made it so good. It just seems a bit strange to me how they limited the Theme. |
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