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Post by beardmonk on Aug 10, 2018 9:02:37 GMT
Leaving cygnar's colossals behind and waiting for about a year until they fix them? Just do a CID with all the remaining colossals/gargantuans to be buffed/discounted already. Given that I am still waiting for the first real CID for my primary faction, color me wholly unsympathetic that Cygnar has a couple models that have been left behind. Talk to me when I can put druids, warpwolves, and wolf-sworn on the table and not feel competitively disadvantaged. I have a lot of sympathy for this. One of my close mates also plays Circle and feels very hard done by with Mk3. He is of the opinion that its not acceptable to have to wait this long for most of his collection to become competitively viable. But I do point out to him that Circle is a high skill faction, powerful but fragile. And there are people out there at competition doing well with Circle and not all of them are using construct lists. He is in a cycle of not playing many games for that reason but as a result he doesn't know what things do in Mk3, so it makes him feel like Circle are even worse than they are, so he does not play many games...... etc etc But I can understand his anger. Especially when 2 whole new factions have been released and the majority of the Circle roster remains as it is. I know CID's are meant to be tied to production releases but I don't understand why this has to be the case for legacy models.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 10, 2018 9:05:46 GMT
I know CID's are meant to be tied to production releases but I don't understand why this has to be the case for legacy models. Basically because they don't have enough time to look at legacy factions before the production cycle catches up to them, and they need to release new models to make money. They had a small window just now and chose to have a (legacy) look at Retribution of Scyrah because Circle will have a CID cycle for themselves soon anyway. Then I think everyone but Mercenaries and Skorne got a CID cycle?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2018 9:08:58 GMT
I just love the arrogance of 'We don't need a Mk3 beta test, we have been developing for 3 years, it's the best it can be', lo and behold 2 years later there are still plenty of models not fit for purpose.
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Post by beardmonk on Aug 10, 2018 9:34:52 GMT
I know CID's are meant to be tied to production releases but I don't understand why this has to be the case for legacy models. Basically because they don't have enough time to look at legacy factions before the production cycle catches up to them, and they need to release new models to make money. They had a small window just now and chose to have a (legacy) look at Retribution of Scyrah because Circle will have a CID cycle for themselves soon anyway. Then I think everyone but Mercenaries and Skorne got a CID cycle? Playing devils advocate with some anecdotes........ Both my Circle mate and another friend who plays Khador they have not/will not buy any more models until they have seen the final output of the CID. In my Khador mates case, he walked away from the game entirely until very recently when Khador have had some CID love. Both of them would have loved to have purchased some new models but not knowing the points costs, what the models will do eventually and whether they are worth the money have completely refrained from investing any more in WM/H. I also know/have met other who have done the same. How does this help PP make money? If PP had/was able to, sort out the legacy stuff first for all faction then existing players could have continued to play without feeling like their faction was disadvantaged (other then the normal salt we always see) and would have continued to put money into the game. Also we might of attracted more new players as we could say with certainty that all factions and themes were as viable as each other. I don't envy PP's task. They are good people who messed up badly the release of Mk3. They have done good work to fix it. But I think the question that my Circle playing friend and people like Oncomingstorm are legitimate.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 10, 2018 9:47:49 GMT
It's a step by step thing. It's pretty much non-stop except during cons and major holidays... Tbh I think the community is likely to burn-out before the existing themes get looked at.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 10, 2018 9:48:58 GMT
I don't envy PP's task. They are good people who messed up badly the release of Mk3. They have done good work to fix it. But I think the question that my Circle playing friend and people like Oncomingstorm are legitimate. It's definitely legitimate, but like you said, they've dug themselves a hole, but they're trying their best to get out of it. But they also need to keep releasing new things and don't have time to take another year or 2 to fix all legacy models first, so we have this "bit of both" model where they handle legacy models while releasing new ones.
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Post by challenger on Aug 10, 2018 10:05:52 GMT
CID has been great at producing an overall more balanced game (mistakes happen of course, both too weak and too strong), but the biggest downside is waiting for a CID for a specific faction. Instead of everyone getting releases you get a lot of love all at once, but then a huge waiting period for the next go
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Post by jisidro on Aug 10, 2018 10:11:46 GMT
CID has been great at producing an overall more balanced game (mistakes happen of course, both too weak and too strong), but the biggest downside is waiting for a CID for a specific faction. Instead of everyone getting releases you get a lot of love all at once, but then a huge waiting period for the next go I'm really disapointed about the Christmas thingy being canceled and instead having spread out releases during the year... I thought it was a good thign that everyone got a model, at least, during christmas. Made for that sort of excitement.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 10, 2018 12:01:14 GMT
CID has been great at producing an overall more balanced game (mistakes happen of course, both too weak and too strong), but the biggest downside is waiting for a CID for a specific faction. Instead of everyone getting releases you get a lot of love all at once, but then a huge waiting period for the next go I'm really disapointed about the Christmas thingy being canceled and instead having spread out releases during the year... I thought it was a good thign that everyone got a model, at least, during christmas. Made for that sort of excitement. I don't follow official PP stuff much. Is it confirmed there is now 12 faction of crhistmas for this year?
Cuz that is kinda dumb. I thought it was an actual decent idea on their part.
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Post by challenger on Aug 10, 2018 12:10:05 GMT
I'm really disapointed about the Christmas thingy being canceled and instead having spread out releases during the year... I thought it was a good thign that everyone got a model, at least, during christmas. Made for that sort of excitement. I don't follow official PP stuff much. Is it confirmed there is now 12 faction of crhistmas for this year?
Cuz that is kinda dumb. I thought it was an actual decent idea on their part.
i believe everyone's still getting a christmas release, but they've broken up testing. Circle's Well of Orboros is their christmas model for example. the Supreme guardian was skorne's and got solo tested
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2018 12:28:34 GMT
I don't follow official PP stuff much. Is it confirmed there is now 12 faction of crhistmas for this year?
Cuz that is kinda dumb. I thought it was an actual decent idea on their part.
i believe everyone's still getting a christmas release, but they've broken up testing. Circle's Well of Orboros is their christmas model for example. the Supreme guardian was skorne's and got solo tested Unfortunately not, they are breaking them up into groups of about 4 throughout the year, this Christmas Grymkin are getting the Clockatrice, Menoth the 3 person Paladin unit, and a couple others I cannot remember
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 10, 2018 13:52:34 GMT
CID looks like an intense part of PPs developement. It's slow because there are many factions and at least 3 themes each... If we assume this logic is maintained there will be no new themes for quite some time and Circle needs 3 more cycles to get its 3 remaining themes looked at... So 2 years? This feels like a soft rotation. You can use the models, there are legal and valid and etc... but it's unlikely a caster can put them on the table better than he can a fleshed out theme. Yeah, most of the CID themes seem to have a different philosophy, in that they're much more self-sufficient and mostly lack outstanding weaknesses. I suppose it's a logical extension of themes being the intended way to play.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 10, 2018 14:22:56 GMT
Given that I am still waiting for the first real CID for my primary faction, color me wholly unsympathetic that Cygnar has a couple models that have been left behind. Talk to me when I can put druids, warpwolves, and wolf-sworn on the table and not feel competitively disadvantaged. I have a lot of sympathy for this. One of my close mates also plays Circle and feels very hard done by with Mk3. He is of the opinion that its not acceptable to have to wait this long for most of his collection to become competitively viable. But I do point out to him that Circle is a high skill faction, powerful but fragile. And there are people out there at competition doing well with Circle and not all of them are using construct lists. He is in a cycle of not playing many games for that reason but as a result he doesn't know what things do in Mk3, so it makes him feel like Circle are even worse than they are, so he does not play many games...... etc etc But I can understand his anger. Especially when 2 whole new factions have been released and the majority of the Circle roster remains as it is. I know CID's are meant to be tied to production releases but I don't understand why this has to be the case for legacy models. I know Circle is a competitive faction. I've been doing just fine (although in the shark tank that is my meta, I'm certainly not the most competitive player)...within the very limited scope of viable models in the faction (Bones of Orboros, and some very limited Griffon Spam lists). I do think you're largely wrong about people doing well outside of that very narrow slice of the faction, though. The issue is that we're now...26 months into Mk3. 18 months into CID, and we're still in a place where only ~35% of Circle's models, and 1/5 themes (give or take) are competitively viable (and but for the wold CID, we wouldn't even have that much). If we're lucky, this CID will give us two more competitive themes, but that's still leaving us to wait...what? another year and a half to see another theme addressed? Then another 18 months after that for the last one? At that point, will we even still be in Mk3? Gamingdevil - the decision to tie CID to releases (and almost solely to releases) was a decision PP made. It wasn't the only route they could have taken - they could, for instance, fairly easily have included small groups of unrelated models into other faction's CIDs. They could have implemented stop-gap fixes on some of the more easily patchable models without waiting for a CID (e.g. maybe something like Druids actually need intensive player testing to fix, but dropping warpwolves by 2 points is a no-brainer which could have been errata'd a year ago without the need for CID). They could have put the damn 'release a new faction every year, taking up 6+ weeks of CID time and 2-3 months of release schedule ever year' on hold until legacy models had been fixed. They could have decided not to release side projects like MonPoc and 'Riiiiiotquest', which literally no one I know is actually excited for or interested in (and which, given PP's track record, will likely end up abandoned inside of a year) until they'd fixed their flagship product. Obviously, I have no idea the extent to which any of these ideas would have been viable from a market competitiveness standpoint, I'm not a PP insider. Point is, they did make a decision as to how they were going to do CID, and whether that's driven by necessity or profit maximization, it's a decision which is subject to critique. jisidro - take out ~ 2.5 months for Con season, give or take 2 weeks for the Ret CID, a month for Christmas, and a month and a half to two months for the new faction every year, and we're looking at CIDs for legacy factions being run only slightly over half the year. That doesn't scream continuous to me.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2018 14:36:01 GMT
oncomingstorm I am actually looking for to Riot Quest...just kidding, it's gonna fail horribly
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 10, 2018 14:58:13 GMT
i believe everyone's still getting a christmas release, but they've broken up testing. Circle's Well of Orboros is their christmas model for example. the Supreme guardian was skorne's and got solo tested Unfortunately not, they are breaking them up into groups of about 4 throughout the year, this Christmas Grymkin are getting the Clockatrice, Menoth the 3 person Paladin unit, and a couple others I cannot remember That's more what I was asking about but I did not pick the right words. I know there are christmas models but I was worried we would not be getting the associated CID.
I fear what will become of the other "gift" models if they don't get a CID...
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