whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 17, 2018 13:52:28 GMT
(...) But holy cow is it crazy to deal with. I have simillar feeling about Circle right know. Wolds are hard to deal with, I'm not sure what to do with this damned Krueger but I'm sure Thagrosh1 is not great pick. You either stay safe and got slowly shoot to death/loose on scenario or go up front with Thagrosh and die. And there are many good Circle players: tournykeeper.com/#/ranking/10
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 17, 2018 14:04:21 GMT
(...) But holy cow is it crazy to deal with. I have simillar feeling about Circle right know. Wolds are hard to deal with, I'm not sure what to do with this damned Krueger but I'm sure Thagrosh1 is not great pick. You either stay safe and got slowly shoot to death/loose on scenario or go up front with Thagrosh and die. And there are many good Circle players: tournykeeper.com/#/ranking/10 Poland does seem to love the druids. I will still argue that Thagrosh1 is a great pick into circle (or at least Thags1 CotD). Lead with swordsmen and hex hunters under FoW, you will lose some but any non boosted shot will miss (and the hex hunters are stealthed). They will hit like wet rags in melee too. I realize that a meta is going to change as you move around, so maybe the players in your local meta will play it all differently. It is very possible that I just don't appreciate the suffering you are going through in Northern Europe. Still, circle doesnt keep me up at night like Trolls/CoC do.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 17, 2018 14:19:29 GMT
What was the site that people could just log their game results? It was like a player experience site with graphs and rankings?
I don't know what the standard wold list is. But the one my Wife is running does not make Thag1 an option. The amount of boostable sprays make high defense and concealment nearly pointless. So my experience probably has no direct correlation to your experience Twity.
As for CoC... ALL OF MY HATE. I really can't stand them. I have no good option. The high armor under Lucant recurring infantry or double TEP with Axis. It's just ridiculous and I know it's something that's going to be at this local SR. I have no good plan what so ever.
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 17, 2018 16:51:34 GMT
So focus on Oracles of Annihilation and Ravens of War to deal with Circle, then? And Thags CotD Honestly the only thing I would not run into circle is PT. RoW infantry spam could also get stomped by a more niche circle build (Kreuger1 Secret Masters, Baldur2 double Woldwrath Bones, Wurmy). I also like OoA with Ravagores if your opponent is running a CotW list with wolves, as nothing makes an 18 point wolf sadder then losing half its HP from 14 inches away. I could also be biased by my local meta and the forums (circle is my off-faction), but in my world if I am building to beat circle I am accounting for slow tactical list and a squishy fast list. My "meta" is my best friend, who plays circle. We play over vassal, because the meta of local shop we went to pretty much died. That and it was also small (two other people played circle in addition to another faction, in total there were like 9 players total, myself and my friend included), so I played my friend on a fairly regular basis anyways. Due to how small the meta was, I've never even SEEN Skorne, Convergence, Mercenaries, Grymkin on the board. I'm hoping the shop revives soon, but for now my Circle friend is all I have to play.
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 17, 2018 16:57:00 GMT
I have simillar feeling about Circle right know. Wolds are hard to deal with, I'm not sure what to do with this damned Krueger but I'm sure Thagrosh1 is not great pick. You either stay safe and got slowly shoot to death/loose on scenario or go up front with Thagrosh and die. And there are many good Circle players: tournykeeper.com/#/ranking/10 I will still argue that Thagrosh1 is a great pick into circle (or at least Thags1 CotD). Lead with swordsmen and hex hunters under FoW, you will lose some but any non boosted shot will miss (and the hex hunters are stealthed). They will hit like wet rags in melee too. What exactly hits like a wet rag in melee, wolds? I mean, a wet rag is all thats needed to kill legion anyway. Plus, they have all their special effects like chain attack: smite and crap.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 17, 2018 17:23:47 GMT
I have simillar feeling about Circle right know. Wolds are hard to deal with, I'm not sure what to do with this damned Krueger but I'm sure Thagrosh1 is not great pick. You either stay safe and got slowly shoot to death/loose on scenario or go up front with Thagrosh and die. And there are many good Circle players: tournykeeper.com/#/ranking/10 Poland does seem to love the druids. I will still argue that Thagrosh1 is a great pick into circle (or at least Thags1 CotD). Lead with swordsmen and hex hunters under FoW, you will lose some but any non boosted shot will miss (and the hex hunters are stealthed). They will hit like wet rags in melee too. I realize that a meta is going to change as you move around, so maybe the players in your local meta will play it all differently. It is very possible that I just don't appreciate the suffering you are going through in Northern Europe. Still, circle doesnt keep me up at night like Trolls/CoC do. Ok, I really like Thagrosh CotD and I want to believe you. Make me a Thagrosh1 CotD list prepared for Krueger2 Bones, maybe some game plan and I will challange somebody and write battle report
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 17, 2018 17:46:33 GMT
Poland does seem to love the druids. I will still argue that Thagrosh1 is a great pick into circle (or at least Thags1 CotD). Lead with swordsmen and hex hunters under FoW, you will lose some but any non boosted shot will miss (and the hex hunters are stealthed). They will hit like wet rags in melee too. I realize that a meta is going to change as you move around, so maybe the players in your local meta will play it all differently. It is very possible that I just don't appreciate the suffering you are going through in Northern Europe. Still, circle doesnt keep me up at night like Trolls/CoC do. Ok, I really like Thagrosh CotD and I want to believe you. Make me a Thagrosh1 CotD list prepared for Krueger2 Bones, maybe some game plan and I will challange somebody and write battle report My pThagrosh list is in my write up
Lets say we are up against standard bones running Megalith/Woldwards, two wyrds, and the standard support staff. Try and get your swordsmen on a side without too much terrain, give them Draconic Strength unless they are staring down both Wyrds. Avoid Megalith as his animus makes them sad. Keep them in fog of war to make that defense 16 a pain to shoot at. If your opponent has the BE give them draconic strength just to shut down the AoE. Hex hunters get the other side, they also stay in FoW or concealing terrain to keep stealth. Stay out of the threat range of anything that doesnt ignore stealth. If they have a BE you want to shadowbind it. Azrael and Zuriel find a building in the center if at all possible, but walls and obstructions work nicely too. your goal is to threaten a central bubble by flying over the obstruction and have them be difficult to shoot at. If forced hide them behind a central forest. Typhon finds a nice hill and plants himself on it, keep his animus off if in Wyrd shooting range. His defense 17 is a pain to shoot at now, and he threatens 14 inches with his sprays. Thagrosh wants to get up the board enough so that he can sap strength if your opponent alphas. pThags chills in a safespot, so that if they alpha onto your stuff you get a nice strength sap. You are already pretty tough with the unyeilding, a warden likely cant one round Azrael (especially now with the changes to unyielding preventing K2 from negating it with a turnaround TK). Priority targets are going to be the Wyrds, but you can wreck anything in this list pretty easily if you get to it. Spend a spell martyr to oblit support staff if needed. If you have to position in the threat range of a model like megalith hit him with a twisted form so his damage output goes to poo. Bones likes to go fury heavy as the wardens max at three, watch for your opponent to leave one transfer target and twisted form it for an assassination. Typhon and Zuriel can charge spray things, and Kreuger doesn't kill their range. If you are going to give a heavy to the gods to wreak some havoc, give it Draconic Strength. If they are going to kill it anyway who cares if the Wyrds get an extra dice or two. Revive said heavy and watch the sadness in your opponents eyes. What other details would you like? What specific problems do you want to deal with?
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 17, 2018 18:03:08 GMT
Ok, I really like Thagrosh CotD and I want to believe you. Make me a Thagrosh1 CotD list prepared for Krueger2 Bones, maybe some game plan and I will challange somebody and write battle report My pThagrosh list is in my write up
Lets say we are up against standard bones running Megalith/Woldwards, two wyrds, and the standard support staff. Try and get your swordsmen on a side without too much terrain, give them Draconic Strength unless they are staring down both Wyrds. Avoid Megalith as his animus makes them sad. Keep them in fog of war to make that defense 16 a pain to shoot at. If your opponent has the BE give them draconic strength just to shut down the AoE. Hex hunters get the other side, they also stay in FoW or concealing terrain to keep stealth. Stay out of the threat range of anything that doesnt ignore stealth. If they have a BE you want to shadowbind it. Azrael and Zuriel find a building in the center if at all possible, but walls and obstructions work nicely too. your goal is to threaten a central bubble by flying over the obstruction and have them be difficult to shoot at. If forced hide them behind a central forest. Typhon finds a nice hill and plants himself on it, keep his animus off if in Wyrd shooting range. His defense 17 is a pain to shoot at now, and he threatens 14 inches with his sprays. Thagrosh wants to get up the board enough so that he can sap strength if your opponent alphas. pThags chills in a safespot, so that if they alpha onto your stuff you get a nice strength sap. You are already pretty tough with the unyeilding, a warden likely cant one round Azrael (especially now with the changes to unyielding preventing K2 from negating it with a turnaround TK). Priority targets are going to be the Wyrds, but you can wreck anything in this list pretty easily if you get to it. Spend a spell martyr to oblit support staff if needed. If you have to position in the threat range of a model like megalith hit him with a twisted form so his damage output goes to poo. Bones likes to go fury heavy as the wardens max at three, watch for your opponent to leave one transfer target and twisted form it for an assassination. Typhon and Zuriel can charge spray things, and Kreuger doesn't kill their range. If you are going to give a heavy to the gods to wreak some havoc, give it Draconic Strength. If they are going to kill it anyway who cares if the Wyrds get an extra dice or two. Revive said heavy and watch the sadness in your opponents eyes. What other details would you like? What specific problems do you want to deal with? Than you for explanation. I will try to get this game, it may take some time but I should manage it. My main concern is to give my heavies death shroud range and not die to Wyrds with Fog of War up. Wolds have 1" reach+TK so lets say I have to be within 5" of my heavies. He can still use gallows to play around if I don't have nice terrarin everywhere. 2nd concern is that I will probably need to face 2 turns of shooting under Windwall and his FEAT. I'm not sure if I will have still something to fight But as I said I will try it.
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Apr 17, 2018 19:05:04 GMT
It sounds to me like the trade is some infantry first while looking for openings with the heavies. Swordsmen are not easy to kill at def 16 to shooting.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 17, 2018 19:31:12 GMT
It sounds to me like the trade is some infantry first while looking for openings with the heavies. Swordsmen are not easy to kill at def 16 to shooting. I do admit I was running Kryssa so I can't put up CoA due to wyrd threat. But it wouldn't have mattered as they all died to Manakin sprays. Min unit + UA all dead (except the Abbot) by two rounds of manakins and 1 good boosted roll from the Fulcrum Lightning gun. FoW would have helped a bit versus the Fulcrum but sprays don't care about concealment. Relying on def against so many boostable attack rolls does not sound like a plan I would recommend.
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Post by dogganmguest on Apr 17, 2018 22:05:45 GMT
Due to how small the meta was, I've never even SEEN Skorne, Convergence, Mercenaries, Grymkin on the board. I'm hoping the shop revives soon, but for now my Circle friend is all I have to play. Imagine how it could be if there were any other people using Vassal...
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 18, 2018 3:17:00 GMT
Due to how small the meta was, I've never even SEEN Skorne, Convergence, Mercenaries, Grymkin on the board. I'm hoping the shop revives soon, but for now my Circle friend is all I have to play. Imagine how it could be if there were any other people using Vassal... There used to be, but vassal has been dead, as well.
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Post by jansuza on Apr 18, 2018 9:52:29 GMT
Krueger is the one I worry about the most, as with all of the TK's and Gallows, it threats more than the 14 from Bradigus, and 14 is at least still playable with casters like Abby2 and Lylyth3 as we have similar threats.
Lylyth3 has been my current go-to for this matchup and it's been working pretty well. Even though windstorm makes her life pretty difficult, I find that one Angelius threating 16 usually keeps him far enough back so that my bolt throwers and Lylyth can still shoot. Kill the gallows grove turn 1, and focus fire on the shrimps after that, and keep some chaff in front of the things you don't want to be dragged so at least there needs to be a proper investment to get them dragged forward. Then apply carniveans to anything that comes to within 13.
I dont see much Baldur, as I find having a naga in even just one of your lists makes your opponent try the other list rather.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 18, 2018 12:31:32 GMT
Than you for explanation. I will try to get this game, it may take some time but I should manage it. My main concern is to give my heavies death shroud range and not die to Wyrds with Fog of War up. Wolds have 1" reach+TK so lets say I have to be within 5" of my heavies. He can still use gallows to play around if I don't have nice terrarin everywhere. 2nd concern is that I will probably need to face 2 turns of shooting under Windwall and his FEAT. I'm not sure if I will have still something to fight But as I said I will try it. So he has a few problems he needs to answer before I can deal with your heavies, namely the swordsmen and the hex hunters. Any shots he puts into your infantry will have to be boosted or he is never hitting a 16. Position your champion to punish with counter charge if they engage in melee. The resources he needs to spend to do all that movement stuff is ridiculous. Lets say the general game plan worked out and Azrael and Zuriel are peaking out from houses (Defense 17 on Zuriel, 16 on Azrael) meaning wolds needs to boost to even have a chance of hitting. If they spend all their focus that way they are notting going to kill an armor 19 or 20 model. Typhon is just as hard to hit if he found himself a hill. Hills in general make this who thing unlikely, as they are going to provide the same defensive buff as a wall. But whatever, he is tricksy and uses to Woldwardens to kill Zuriel. Destroy that model with a combination of Draconic Strengthed Typhon/Zuriel/Solider/Swordsmen/Thags. Revive Zuriel on hill/behind wall/behind house, and laugh maniacally. But oh no, your dice failed you and one survived. Put twisted form on any wold that has a chance of counter attacking, a fury 1 wold kills nothing. Wyrds are going to be hardpressed to kill Thags and if they decide to go for it you can punish them. Lets say you hand out all your upkeeps and blitz up the board with Excessive Healing up (three fury for transfers). That means that a Wyrd assassination is going to need to nail every shot to even have a chance of killing thags. Transfer the boosted damage shots to your bloodseer/solider. If you put Thags behind a wall or on a hill they are going to need 12's to hit, and if they are in shooting range of pThags you have no excuse not to murderize them next round. pThags with excessive healing (or dodge if their threat range is close) makes these kill attempts almost impossible. If you are concerned about Wyrds killing your heavies, just don't give them an animus/upkeep. Wyrds will need to boost just to hit anything in your army, so at most you are eating one boosted pow 12. But before any of this, how are they going to deal with the FoW weapon masters? Bayal and his posse will make them suffer with shadowbind as well, plus they are pretty good at killing a shifting stone with they hex bolts.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 18, 2018 14:55:22 GMT
This really depends on the caster:
Krueger: Shenanigans gunline Wurmwood: Stranglehold gunline Mohsar: Crevvasse spam + combined arms Baldur1: Piece trading shenanigans Baldu2: I heard you like rocks on top of your rocks arm spam Bradigus: Alpha strike: Wold edition
I have seen Brad, the baldurs, and Mohsar get wrecked by Oracles. Moslty Fyana or abby2. Both of whom have solid threat ranges and hit very hard. Without megalith, wolds struggle with def 13+ as they are all mat/rat 6.
Wurmwood is an interesting problem because stranglehold can be super swingy when your beasts are all def 14+. His feat is sort of circumvented by flight/pathfinder and He relies on hellmouth shenanigans as a threat extender. I have not personally played the match up, but I think this completely depends on terrain and scenario because of how stranglehold works.
Krueger 2 is the most consistent offender with wolds. Lots of threat range extenders, a denial/control feat and TK can be a pseudo Accuracy buff. The thing is, as long as you can remove megalith or 2 heavies from the table with your alpha, you can probably swing attrition enough to make it an uphill battle for the kruger 2 player. I think you should avoid infantry, lightning storm literally gives 0 craps about high def, because it just causes auto Pow 10's to everyone under the AOE, and MA 8 rebuke is a thing with the fulcrum.
Also keep in mind hunters mark will be MA8 as long as the fulcrum is there, making is fairly consistent against def 14.
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