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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 18, 2018 9:28:17 GMT
don't bother engaging, as I said above, Octavius thinks everything is terrible Not true.Other factions stuff was considered quite OP in previous CIDs At least Man-o-War Bombardiers will disagree with you.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Apr 18, 2018 9:36:50 GMT
Cain0 seems to have some niche use, but overall i will find it hard to prioritize having him in a list.
Mostly im salty that sorcha0 and sevyO gives a really good overall boost to other stuff in army, which cain does not. That seems like the way the developers started out with cain0 with snipe too, but not how it ended. We dont need more pow 10/12 spot removing.
Would have been great with a zerocaster who gave out pathfinder or gave +2 damage buff...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 10:02:07 GMT
Cain0 seems to have some niche use, but overall i will find it hard to prioritize having him in a list. Mostly im salty that sorcha0 and sevyO gives a really good overall boost to other stuff in army, which cain does not. That seems like the way the developers started out with cain0 with snipe too, but not how it ended. We dont need more pow 10/12 spot removing. Would have been great with a zerocaster who gave out pathfinder or gave +2 damage buff... With the change to lightning coming down the line, I think the value of Trick Shot will increase significantly, I can easily see a Centurion imprinting and running up, and then Caine pinging him in the back to kill some stealth or high def infantry nearby
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Apr 18, 2018 10:25:15 GMT
Seems like a really heavy investment for some stealth mitigation.
The same trick we already have with fireflys in HM. For 8 points and gives more free points. For SOT we have B13. Normally thats enough against some stealt models.
If hard stealt skews become a thing, a few trichshots will not be enough. That needs a special build with either lots of electricity or the comeback of tempest gun mages.
Im not saying cain0 is bad. He is just not 1) a good buffbot like 2 of the others or 2) something cygnar lack at the moment.
He is more of the same we have already - but in a new package.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 10:29:19 GMT
Seems like a really heavy investment for some stealth mitigation. The same trick we already have with fireflys in HM. For 8 points and gives more free points. For SOT we have B13. Normally thats enough against some stealt models. If hard stealt skews become a thing, a few trichshots will not be enough. That needs a special build with either lots of electricity or the comeback of tempest gun mages. Im not saying cain0 is bad. He is just not 1) a good buffbot like 2 of the others or 2) something cygnar lack at the moment. He is more of the same we have already - but in a new package. Bear in mind it's not just stealth mitigation, it's magical stealth mitigation, or as I like to call it, Gremlin Swarms be gone!
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Apr 18, 2018 10:47:25 GMT
Shure its a nice trick. Cain then need to be 17 away from the leap target when he activates. In SoT B13 can take out gremlin swarms from 20 away. Some shot could go on a shield guard, but you should have enough. Same with minifeatet gun mages or gun mage captains.
We have several grymkin players and i im very hesitated to drop a HM list into them. Gremlin swarms or not. They seem to win the attrition game fine against our heavies.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 18, 2018 10:50:08 GMT
As Thunderhead user, I'm very fine with FFE. Having the ability to get threat range extensions (Haley2, Darius, Nemo1) and a Pulse paragonable to the one under Nemo3 feat is great.
Also, even when not using pulse, one fully boosted RNG 14 - POW 14 and two auto-hitting POW 14 (Electric, so buffable with Firefly) shots (with another one of them boosted) aren't bad at all.
Also, having access to Shadow Fire, Magic Bullet and Thunderbolt in Heavy Metal is great. I think many casters will love the first in particular.
In general, I'm fine with Caine0. Sure, it's not as OP as Sorscha0 and Sevy0, but the goal shouldn't have OP models released, and Caine0 will be able to strongly expand our options without limiting our design space too much (a thing that I think is going to happen to Khador if Sorscha gets released like that).
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 18, 2018 11:15:42 GMT
Caine0 seems very bad to me. FFE is mediocre, output is mediocre, defences are mediocre, ability to run a jack is mediocre. Cygnar remains a faction with 0 playable Caine's. I guess he should be medicore then?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 12:47:47 GMT
Caine0 seems very bad to me. FFE is mediocre, output is mediocre, defences are mediocre, ability to run a jack is mediocre. Cygnar remains a faction with 0 playable Caine's. you are never pleased with anything, so this latest assessment is of no surprise False. I just enjoy interesting pieces in the game. Caine0 is a spectacularly dull piece.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 12:51:29 GMT
you are never pleased with anything, so this latest assessment is of no surprise False. I just enjoy interesting pieces in the game. Caine0 is a spectacularly dull piece. What is the most interesting piece in Cygnar atm in your opinion? I just want to see what sort of benchmark you are using.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 18, 2018 13:34:31 GMT
Well don't everyone go picking on another forum member for wanting an interesting or functional or slightly stronger than par model via design intention. The obtuseness is acute here. I'm new to this forum, but I can honestly say yawl are a weird bunch claiming future design space limitations yet miss the opportunity to fill that "space" with a worth wild design buff. It’s like inheriting wealth, yet never utilizing it and dying as an average joe. lol Those of you who, from what I can see, get off to handicapping cygnar, should have at least argued with CID to make Caine0 more of a super solo rather than FFE on a stick. But, maybe that would also limit our "design space" for all future super solos, so we should never get one… Definitely a weird and funny bunch.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 13:51:25 GMT
False. I just enjoy interesting pieces in the game. Caine0 is a spectacularly dull piece. What is the most interesting piece in Cygnar atm in your opinion? I just want to see what sort of benchmark you are using. Storm Lances are interesting pieces. They are fast, they hit spectactularly hard but fall over to most boostable shooting. Their weakness can be accounted for, but never truly goes away. They also have strong indirect presence in that they have electroleap, Impact attacks and reposition. This gives them a range of methods of exploiting good positioning on the table. Trencher Infantry are interesting pieces. They are reliable, they are accurate, they can shoot and Dig in, they can charge. They have a lot of cool things that they can do and are never really truly out of a fight because they are great all rounders with the addition of Dig In. They are a great starting point to layer buffs on and putting Fury on Trenchers is just as valuable as putting Deadeye on them and produce vastly different on table effects. Centurions are interesting pieces. They have a reasonably strong base statline and the ability to do some good work with access to some very powerful defensive tech which isn't simply adding numbers. Like Dig In, the counter isn't just to bring more Rat or STR, the counters on the table include a number of spells and abilities as well as trampling. Its an interesting piece because it forces your opponent to make tough trades without you just walking about and out-armouring people. Interesting pieces are the ones that are reliable pieces alone with a good basis for buffs, they force a strong edge that your opponent needs to respect while allowing your opponent to have some on table counters. Caine0 is not a good model to layer buffs on because his impact alone is too low. He needs to come so far across the table to do anything and risk himself and all your opponent needs to do to counter Caine is to bludgeon through his def and arm. I cannot see myself putting any spell from a caster onto Caine0 because its not worth it. Caine himself only buffs hit and damage with FFE. He doesn't open up any new options, he makes Siege 1 slightly more efficient, he makes Haley 2's Hurricane a little more efficient. These are not things that change factions.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 18, 2018 14:07:26 GMT
Well don't everyone go picking on another forum member for wanting an interesting or functional or slightly stronger than par model via design intention. The obtuseness is acute here. I'm new to this forum, but I can honestly say yawl are a weird bunch claiming future design space limitations yet miss the opportunity to fill that "space" with a worth wild design buff. It’s like inheriting wealth, yet never utilizing it and dying as an average joe. lol Those of you who, from what I can see, get off to handicapping cygnar, should have at least argued with CID to make Caine0 more of a super solo rather than FFE on a stick. But, maybe that would also limit our "design space" for all future super solos, so we should never get one… Definitely a weird and funny bunch. As you are new here you have yet to realise that pretty much nothing is ever good enough for Octavius.
Whether or not Caine0 is interesting is mostly subjective, I think he his, other people think he is boring, I won't lose sleep over that.
Wanting Caine0 to be stronger than par is just a fancy way of saying power creep. Power Creep is never a good thing, even if it is the faction I play getting it.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 14:14:44 GMT
Well don't everyone go picking on another forum member for wanting an interesting or functional or slightly stronger than par model via design intention. The obtuseness is acute here. I'm new to this forum, but I can honestly say yawl are a weird bunch claiming future design space limitations yet miss the opportunity to fill that "space" with a worth wild design buff. It’s like inheriting wealth, yet never utilizing it and dying as an average joe. lol Those of you who, from what I can see, get off to handicapping cygnar, should have at least argued with CID to make Caine0 more of a super solo rather than FFE on a stick. But, maybe that would also limit our "design space" for all future super solos, so we should never get one… Definitely a weird and funny bunch. As you are new here you have yet to realise that pretty much nothing is ever good enough for Octavius.
Whether or not Caine0 is interesting is mostly subjective, I think he his, other people think he is boring, I won't lose sleep over that.
Wanting Caine0 to be stronger than par is just a fancy way of saying power creep. Power Creep is never a good thing, even if it is the faction I play getting it.
I think Caine0 is boring as well as bad. He isn't worth the price of admission. Thinking that you know my value judgements through the Interweb is just pure fantasy, though. I think a lot of Cygnar is fine just as a lot of the game is fine, the sheer majority in fact. But that doesn't mean that everything is good. I have high standards for design, I don't see why we should pedal for second best. Caine0 is not good design, he wasn't necessarily with Snipe but he also isn't with FFE. My Hierarchy is this: 1. Powerful and Interesting 2. Powerful and Uninteresting 3. Weak and Interesting 4. Weak and Uninteresting. We should always strive for 1. We want all models to have interesting designs that are powerful such as Siege 2. When PP showed us Siege 2 at the start of the Trencher CID he was servicable, but boring. I pushed for more focuses on his Jumping mechanics and we ended up with a much more interesting character. Triumph, though, he was uninteresting and weak and honestly, he didn't really become interesting. He's a good shooty guy, he has a shield. He shoots better than Defenders do and his Bond to Siege is that he shoots hard again. Triumph is a 2, He's powerful but he's not particularly interesting on the table. Caine0 is currently a 4 because none of his abilities coalesce into anything strong, but he also doesn't really do anything that is interesting or unique either. That Is why I don't like him.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 18, 2018 14:17:26 GMT
Well don't everyone go picking on another forum member for wanting an interesting or functional or slightly stronger than par model via design intention. The obtuseness is acute here. I'm new to this forum, but I can honestly say yawl are a weird bunch claiming future design space limitations yet miss the opportunity to fill that "space" with a worth wild design buff. It’s like inheriting wealth, yet never utilizing it and dying as an average joe. lol Those of you who, from what I can see, get off to handicapping cygnar, should have at least argued with CID to make Caine0 more of a super solo rather than FFE on a stick. But, maybe that would also limit our "design space" for all future super solos, so we should never get one… Definitely a weird and funny bunch. Welcome to the forums! Your point is an interesting one. The idea of ever expanding a vault for a fortune that may never come is a worrying one. I personally agree that I would love Caine0 to be a true *super solo* rather than the mediocre solo he currently is. Unfortunately I don't know what PP wants and I don't trust the assessment of players so I feel that Caine0 might be doomed to be DoA, or PP may put something silly on him and he will be strong, but possibly very silly.
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