Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on May 8, 2018 11:15:54 GMT
srsly tho draketards was closest to the answer. rof2, minifeat repo5, lose cma gain shield guard. 10/16. baller I'd definitely test that with Fio... Dammit we're going in circles But yeah I like this change the best, shield guard is cool but they don't even need that for me to try them out. I just want a 'cheap' rof2 small based unit (sorry gunmages but 3ea?).
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on May 8, 2018 13:25:59 GMT
To me, that (minus shield guard) makes more sense as like a group of duelists...say like flowery gun wielding wizards...
But seriously, I think they either need to double down on the shooting with a hint of shield (seems bad) or double down on the shield with a hint of shooting (seems named appropriately).
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Post by gobber on May 18, 2018 3:38:19 GMT
Here's a thought: +1 base armor, trade shield wall for wall of steel (final arm 18, same as forgies). Standard bearer gets a renamed rhulic version of Doc Killingsworth's buff to nearby tough rolls called Hold the Line!. With those changes the unit can run/charge without penalty but keeps the phalanx behavior, double time gets more useful to keep them out front, and they gain a new support role which synergizes well with the theme benefit+battle engines+forgies package. It's always nice when it's actually a decision whether to sacrifice an attack to take up the standard. Gorten in particular would turn them into a PITA of a tarpit.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 21, 2018 4:24:54 GMT
Give the UA the Defensive Formation mini-feat from the standard iron fang UA? (Unit gains reposition[5] and goes into shield wall at the end of the turn.) Loose the current mini-feat in the process.
Then increase either the range by 2, POW by 2 or RoF by 1.
Cheers, Dave
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on May 21, 2018 5:19:18 GMT
Ccan't increase the carbines range for power because it is on other stuff. but this model has two barrels so you can give it rof 2
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 21, 2018 5:29:20 GMT
RoF2 with CRA on RAT5, RNG10, POW10 guns seems legit? Would that plus the Defensive Formation mini-feat for the UA give them a place?
UA might need something else since the Double Time and Guns Blazing abilities would both be dropped...
What about the ability that lets the unit make CRAs into melee? Can't remember the name.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by gobber on May 21, 2018 5:30:11 GMT
RoF2 with CRA on RAT5, RNG10, POW10 guns seems legit? Would that plus the Defensive Formation mini-feat for the UA give them a place? UA might need something else since the Double Time and Guns Blazing abilities would both be dropped... What about the ability that lets the unit make CRAs into melee? Can't remember the name. Cheers, Dave war tempered
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on May 21, 2018 15:17:28 GMT
RoF2 with CRA on RAT5, RNG10, POW10 guns seems legit? Would that plus the Defensive Formation mini-feat for the UA give them a place? UA might need something else since the Double Time and Guns Blazing abilities would both be dropped... What about the ability that lets the unit make CRAs into melee? Can't remember the name. Cheers, Dave I kinda feel like this would be not enough without a point reduction, and with a point reduction would make the TGM largely irrelevant (RoF2, can shoot into melee, trading some cost for way more bodies, etc.).
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 21, 2018 15:27:30 GMT
RoF2 with CRA on RAT5, RNG10, POW10 guns seems legit? Would that plus the Defensive Formation mini-feat for the UA give them a place? UA might need something else since the Double Time and Guns Blazing abilities would both be dropped... What about the ability that lets the unit make CRAs into melee? Can't remember the name. Cheers, Dave I kinda feel like this would be not enough without a point reduction, and with a point reduction would make the TGM largely irrelevant (RoF2, can shoot into melee, trading some cost for way more bodies, etc.). Thorn Gun Mages could probably afford to go down to 8 points, 9 points is hard to swallow for a 3 person unit made of tissue paper. I have used a unit in LR for lack of any other units to take, but they don't tempt me in the slightest for Irregulars
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 21, 2018 20:26:20 GMT
Their problem, from experience, is they get out shot by ranged units that are cheaper than them(House Guard, Gun Mages, So many legion things, etc.) and are to slow to close the gap. Hence they get shot off the board before being able to get much done there. Well how about melee capability? When compared to a dedicated Melee unit, they lack the offensive output of cheaper melee options. For instance the Forge Guard (who are cheaper if the UA for the Highshields is taken into account) are slow, but each one packs a pow 11 on three dice (four if you charge). Meaning on average they hit for 21 p+s (no charge considered). Not only that, but they have a two inch reach. For the same points (or more with the UA) you get a pow 9 with a .5 reach. Even if you can finagle two or three into one target, a single forge guard outperforms them. Well what about armor? The Forge Guard only have one less armor when base to base then they do, and Armor 19 really isn't over the curve needed to make it any more survivable really than armor 18. Plus in order to stay at armor 19 they can't run, which means they're moving even slower. They have the some nifty tech in that they can move shoot move, but with speed 4, there aren't really any obstructions they're going to be able to poke out and shoot from and get back into proper cover. That or they'll try and pop out from a forest... to then move back in and get +2 def... which means they're still def 12. Then there is their ability to fire twice, which is pretty nice. In fact if they had more range and threat, it might actually make them playable... but they don't, and so if you're lucky you get part of a unit that gets to do this, and then they don't really do much the rest of the game (other than die). What about caster support? Well Gorten really doesn't help that much. If the opponent has enough speed to get to them, they've usually got enough attacks to cripple them, and pushing the enemy back for the reduced def at that point really doesn't help. And I've already discussed the problem with trying to use a wall on a Def 10 unit (the def isn't really high enough to save them). Ossrum gives them one turn to get into position... but it's one turn, and if it goes bad, you've placed 21 points into a unit that can't recover. I would certainly give Ossrum the best hope... but it works WAY better with Forge Guard, or if you want a ranged option, TAC or HAC. I have tried them several times, tried to make them work, and I ALWAYS find that I could have done more with TAC, HAC, or Forge Guard. They need to stop being so in-between-ish and just pick a role. I figure they'd be a good dedicated shooting unit with some kind of threat extension. Then TAC would be your magic weapons HAC would be your long range one shot lobber, FG would be your melee, and... well OAC need help... but that's another issue. This sums up their issues very well.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on May 22, 2018 13:44:28 GMT
I kinda feel like this would be not enough without a point reduction, and with a point reduction would make the TGM largely irrelevant (RoF2, can shoot into melee, trading some cost for way more bodies, etc.). Thorn Gun Mages could probably afford to go down to 8 points, 9 points is hard to swallow for a 3 person unit made of tissue paper. I have used a unit in LR for lack of any other units to take, but they don't tempt me in the slightest for Irregulars I totally agree. I have a couple units of them and they frequently get played in my LR lists (and CoI) but never in any other theme. I like them a lot but feel that they should be 7 or 8 points. I keep comparing them to the Devil's Shadow Mutineers as they have the ability to put out a similar number of attacks with some flexibility, but the DSM costs 1 less and has the ability to come back over and over again.
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