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Post by systemdown on Apr 6, 2017 15:23:36 GMT
I really like Zuriel with Thagrosh2. He is a swiss army knife of a beast, Manifest destiny tips the balance for one rounding a heavy in most instances, precision strike allows you to cripple key weapons on multiple jacks/beasts, he can rinse infantry with a combo of 2" melee and (if you judge it right) 2x Sprays. 6" plus flight really helps him get out of dodge on feat turn and Mat8 means he rarely needs to boost, making him super fury efficient. I wrote about my Thags 2 list in the tactics thread started by Lanz, I play a 50pt variant where I will drop Typhon in preference for Big Z. Be sure you aren't cheating if your reliably getting those sprays off. He has quickwork but not gunfighter What I was trying to say was that by choosing the correct charge target and placing Zuriel correctly it should be possible to kill the target(s) he is engaged with and trigger quickwork to flambe something else. Its not super reliable, but into heavy infantry you can often charge 1 and engage a second, spray the charge target and a dude behind (boost on the spray and second attack) and still get a quick work spray off at something else killing 3+ heavy infantry. Its all heavily dependent on board state, but with correct use of feat and some slightly hot dice he can clear a whole unit out of a zone and then feat move to a safe point to control it. For me, the reason he is so good with Thags is MD bolsters his one weakness (low P+S) and you were probably casting it anyway, he is then a super flexible problem solver.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Apr 6, 2017 16:11:54 GMT
To support the Thagrosh2 sentiment, when using the feat defensively, Zuriel also gets a lot value out of it than something like the Scythean. I used Zuriel there a few times instead of running double Scythean in MK2, and enjoyed it, but the animus and stat change diminished my interest a bit (man I loved those boosted spray 10s). Upon reflection, however, I think I can attribute my lack of interest more to all of the other nerfs that hit my Thagrosh2 list, rather than Zuriel's "readjustment".
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Post by LegionX on Apr 6, 2017 17:39:25 GMT
Right now zuriel is great with fyanna and twins and okay with saeryn1 and rhyas1. While difficult to convince people to go outside oracles which is the new hotness, a solid fyanna list (that actually gets use out of iron flesh!) could look something like this: War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Fyanna2
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Fyanna, Torment of Everblight - WB: +28 - Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Zuriel - PC: 18 - Angelius - PC: 17
Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 6 Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 6
---
GENERATED : 04/06/2017 10:36:14 BUILD ID : 2038.17-03-15
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 6, 2017 21:25:41 GMT
I didn't notice the comparison to an RPG party. I like your cloud/ninja smoke ability. There's also the possibility making it into a Bayal-esque or Moros-like beast with Shadowbind or Paralysis combined with maybe Thresher.
It's times like this that I wish had some theme lists that allowed a character beast like Circle or Cygnar. It would've been awesome to have access to Zuriel or Azrael in Children of the Dragon.
Back to the topic of a cheap heavy, what is the minimum P+S and inital attacks needed for it to be a compelling choice? I was basing my first idea off Menoth's Sanctifier jack that was PS16 Reach with a PS14 Open fist for 14pts.
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Post by josephkerr on Apr 6, 2017 21:40:25 GMT
Rng 2 POW 17, rng 1 pow 15 buckler on a 13/16 chassis with fury 3 and flight. Mat 6 with Powerful Charge. 14 points? 15? I feel, with a lack of animus PoW buffs, that pow 17 is minimum on a melee heavy, even budget, unless they bring utility, which seems bad on a budget melee heavy.
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Post by Korianneder on Apr 6, 2017 22:05:11 GMT
Rng 2 POW 17, rng 1 pow 15 buckler on a 13/16 chassis with fury 3 and flight. Mat 6 with Powerful Charge. 14 points? 15? I feel, with a lack of animus PoW buffs, that pow 17 is minimum on a melee heavy, even budget, unless they bring utility, which seems bad on a budget melee heavy. So basically a neraph with two extra power? We may lack an damage buffing animi but we have a damage debuff on a 9 point character unit and most of our warlocks have a damage buff themselves. I think if we get a budget heavy it's going to be pow 16 on the carnivean body. They're already pow 16 talons. Make it 12 or 13 points, only the two talon initials, give it a situational animi and call it there. I think the neraph is our budget heavy anyway since it's pow 15 and only 12 points.
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Post by josephkerr on Apr 6, 2017 22:07:39 GMT
Seems legit at like 14, 15 points, even.
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Post by Korianneder on Apr 7, 2017 2:14:43 GMT
Seems legit at like 14, 15 points, even. Yea I was kind of thinking that as well. Especially with Oracles I don't think we'll be getting a 12 point heavy other than the Neraph.
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Post by josephkerr on Apr 7, 2017 2:56:48 GMT
Oracles is a game changer. It's probably a concept Legion was balanced around and therefore overpriced for a while.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 7, 2017 11:18:02 GMT
Oracles is a game changer. It's probably a concept Legion was balanced around and therefore overpriced for a while. And I hate it. We should be correctly priced from the start.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 7, 2017 13:36:53 GMT
<nothing below is meant to be condescending or malicious)
I understand the overwhelming desire for a budget heavy. But all the things listed that can be thought of as "balanced" for the points is lackluster and so similar to what already exists I don't even want it to exist. You're asking for a Ravagore minus the gun. Or Zuriel minus 1 Fury (and wishfully +1 pow). That to me just seems terribly boring and I'd rather run the neraph, it has more character/personality. Not to mention the overlap in "design space".
Legion is not a faction designed for a fair fight. So why would we ever get a econo-heavy to fight fairly against enemy econo-heavies? We already have brutal charge precision strike soldiers. they do exactly as much work as needed to turn any warjack into a dud with no focus. Yea it may still be difficult to continue to chew through armor+hitboxes, I get that. It's almost a non-threat at that point though. That's a huge swing in our favor. How many of those econo-heavies can charge a model 11" away and with one~two swings carve out it's cortex every time?
Of all the things I want to be able to trade into warjacks; Hutchuk is the top of the list. Simple, effective, no dependencies... just throw a bomb. Done.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 7, 2017 20:39:11 GMT
I for one like the Soldier, however, it really makes the Neraph look like a dud. It's slightly more powerful, for slightly more points. It can autohit, however with MAT7 I feel that it's fluff, same as having an Open Fist to throw but shackled with one fist and STR9 limits its usefulness.
So in conclusion, I'd like to see a heavy Nephilim because I love Nephilim and the Neraph isn't doing its job. The one thing I like about the Neraph is Beat Back.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 7, 2017 21:22:25 GMT
The Neraph does its job just fine with Fyanna2. Other than that...
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Post by fossilfinder on Apr 7, 2017 22:10:21 GMT
The Neraph does its job just fine with Fyanna2. Other than that... It also does great with Kryssa, for similar reasons. I've been running four of them with Azrael and a Seraph as her battlegroup and it's been surprisingly good. Back on topic: As I use a Blightbringer with the Twins, Zuriel hardly ever makes it into their lists, double bond or no. think the build with Wrong-Eye and Snapjaw can probably leverage his utility better and make him more survivable, but then you're not in Theme so you actually have to pay for your support. IDK which one is better but I don't own WE&SJ so I don't play him much. Zuriel with Fyanna2 can work pretty well but the lack of Gunfighter and the timing on Overtake make getting his second spray very difficult and usually not worth it imo. Being the (usually) only non-Serpentine beast in that army and having a naturally lower DEF makes him a great KD target on feat turn as well. Generally he's been harder to make functional than I'd like, although that might be a meta thing since I stare down a lot of mechanics that just repair the systems on the jacks he cripples. I doubt we'll ever get a "budget" heavy on a Nephilim chassis or otherwise. All of our beasts have native Eyeless Sight, usually a pretty decent number of initials and most of them have built in ways to ignore terrain (pathfinder, flight, what have you). Combined with the "animus tax" that almost all beasts seem to get it means our beasts generally are points-inefficient as beaters because they are the Mercedes Benz beasts with a ton of extra features. Given how Nephilim are made, a fully generic heavy chassis variant seems unlikely just from a logistics issue fluffwise. We'll certainly not get anything that hits remotely close to as hard as a Scythean and be bargain priced as well.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Apr 7, 2017 22:35:22 GMT
The fact remains that it's possible to put a Nephilim heavy chassis in the 13-16 point range.
What will be balanced for those points? We can speculate, but it's certainly possible to exist there and be a competitive add without being an auto-include.
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