skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 26, 2018 17:00:14 GMT
Hello, I have a tournament in 2 weeks and since my meta has shrunk quite a bit lately, I just don't see all the armies anymore up close and personal. I watch a fair bit of reports but those seems to favor certain armies. I have my lists planned out but need some help if you guys can spot any glaring weaknesses against popular builds.
Grim 1 KC -Runebearer
-Bomber
-Pyre
-Swamp
Mist Speaker
Min Bone Grinders
Braylen
WW
2x Fire Eaters
Max Raiders
- Sorcerer
Max Stone
- NK Elder
Thumper
Specialists - Storm troll, whelps, Eilish, Max Burrowers, Thumper, Stone Scribe Elder
The idea being this is my swarm list to deal with high defense, high model count armies. I can deal with clouds and have a fairly good assassination vector between Grim himself and the WW. Super high armor is a problem but only really on the caster as I think I can circumvent the rest of the army if I absolutely have to.
Ragnor PoD -Runebearer -Mulg -Mauler -2x Basher -2x Night Troll -Slag -Axer Whelps Janissa Feralgeist Dhunian Knot Max Krielstone -SSE
Specialists - Pyre Troll, Storm Troll, Earthborn, Horgle Ironstrike(thinking of swapping for 2nd whelps), Shaman
This list performed quite well into a double Colossal Harkevich list. I also managed to take on a Nemo3 list. I think the feat is crucial to delivering the army. I've clocked every opponent I've played because they have to chew threw so many boxes. Also, nobody seems to really know what all these models do so I've caught people off guard.
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Post by Trollock on Feb 27, 2018 9:34:30 GMT
For the grim list, how about making it a min stone and remove the sorcerer. Then you can get a min unit of sluggers for more attacks!
Over all, the list looks very support heavy. You have very few things that actually does work. The list becomes sensitive to have basically anything killed since there are so few things that can pick up the slack. Also, like with most KC lists, it means that you will be very limited in terms of what pairings you dare to drop this against. Even moderate amounts of ARM will be really tough to get rid of with this set up, so if an opponent brings one list with just a little extra beef, you may not dare drop this and be forced to play Ragnor.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 27, 2018 19:14:43 GMT
For the grim list, how about making it a min stone and remove the sorcerer. Then you can get a min unit of sluggers for more attacks! Over all, the list looks very support heavy. You have very few things that actually does work. The list becomes sensitive to have basically anything killed since there are so few things that can pick up the slack. Also, like with most KC lists, it means that you will be very limited in terms of what pairings you dare to drop this against. Even moderate amounts of ARM will be really tough to get rid of with this set up, so if an opponent brings one list with just a little extra beef, you may not dare drop this and be forced to play Ragnor. I guess my concern with going min on the stone is that it won't be as effective in supporting the raiders or the WW. I can see your point though. I'm always afraid to use sluggers as they die to a stiff breeze and their output is still variable but I'll keep it in mind. I would say though that one has to remember that the bone grinders(grievous wounds and weaponmaster against beasts) and the mist speaker(influence) can actually contribute offensively as well.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 12, 2018 17:29:19 GMT
Ok so thought I would pop in here and give the results I had from the Intermountain Cup this last weekend.
1. Ragnor VS Vlad 2 Vlad had Conquest, the dog, unit of Kayazy with officer, 2x kayazy eliminators, 2 manhunters, 2 forge seers with a jack marshalled behemoth. Scenario was spread the net. I took Ragnor because I didn't think that Grim would play super well into either of his lists even though I built it to handle the spread the net scenario. As you can imagine it was a super bad setup for me from the beginning. He ran the dog over and started scoring his flag immediately while Mulg and the Mauler played a cat and mouse game with his jacks. I had swapped in an earthborn for a night troll and a basher to try and push the far zone. It swung that way led by a night troll. The basher and axer attempted to swing right to put pressure on his flag and hold my zone. I made a huge mistake and feated turn 2 and my opponent just sat back and waited while trying to pick off some models with his long guns and contesting my flag and zone. End of 2 (0-1)
Turn 3: The night troll charges and kills a regular kayazy in the left zone and kills it, sucks in a manhunter and kills it too. I was about .5 inches from being able to pull in one eliminator to clear the zone and score it. The earthborn runs to the corner of the zone to toe in and get next to a wall. I kill a couple Kayazy in the middle and the axer fails to hit a def 17 eliminator to clear my zone. The basher runs to contest the flag. I clear mine. My opponent feats and 2 kayazy kill the night troll. The two eliminators leave my earthborn on 10 or so and contest my flag. A single feated manhunter kills my axer and the eliminators finish off the basher. Behemoth takes some shots as does the conquest but they stay back. He runs the rest of the kayazy up to engage the slag and mulg who are toeing the middle zone. End of 3 (1-2)
Turn 4: The earthborn kills the kayazy, clearing my flag, and snacks some whelps to get back to about 20 boxes, the mauler moves to kill Behemoth if he comes for the earthborn. Mulg can't charge the manhunter so runs to within 5 and stays out of conquests threat range. I put up rites of power. Slag clears kayazy next to him and heals back to 15 health or so. Ragnor kills manhunter with a hex blast but fails to kill eliminator with blast damage. Digs in the slag, himself and the stone. My opponent kills the earthborn with Behemoth clearing his zone and engages the mauler with two kayazy, contesting my flag. Conquest get the crit devastation on the slag but fails to throw him out of the zone(rolled a 1). The eliminators run to the corners of my zone to stop me from pulling another hex blast through Mulg. End of 4 (2-5)
Turn 5: Now I'm in real trouble. I really need to clear the Mauler so I puppet strings Ragnor and he boosts a hex blast into him, managing to hit both kayazy. I promptly roll a 3 on the blast damage and re-roll to kill him but then don't break armor on the second. I had to cast rage on the mauler so couldn't afford to boost the damage. In a stroke of luck a charging stone scribe rolls the 8 needed to hit him and kills him. The mauler charges and wrecks Behemoth but I think there is a forge seer toeing his zone. Mulg is out of control I think so fails to kill the eliminators. I have one desperate last attempt to kill the dog on the flag by charging Janissa at a kayazy to battle wizard but since I didn't see it coming I don't puppet master her and miss the 9 needed to hit. My opponent kills the slag and Janissa to take the middle zone and runs a kayazy to contest my flag. End of 5 (3-8)
Spread the net is rough. I find it so difficult to put pressure on the opponents flag and never had a turn where I could afford to arc a hex blast or something onto the dog. I was really hurt by the fact that our threat ranges were the same but he had really good guns and I didn't. In the end though he needed to hit on several unboosted 8's and boosted 11's and 12's to clear the central zone the last turn and if he hadn't the whole game changes because I finally clear all the kayazy and the forge seers and he's down to Vlad and conquest. Was a really good game.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 12, 2018 18:09:47 GMT
Game 2: Ragnor vs Maelok Scenario was Outlast He had 3 units of posse, two witch doctors, a gobber chef, a soul slave, 2 wrastlers, a blind walker and a bull snapper. I start by running everything straight forward. He sent one posse to each side and one up the middle. Wrastlers went to both sides with the walker behind the one on my right. There's a huge forest in the middle keeping me from seeing the chef he puts on his flag. I run Mulg up behind it, the basher, slag and night troll go to my left and a night troll and basher go to my right alowing for a couple charges to try to draw him in. I keep everything else way out of range. On his second turn he charges what he can, managing to kill a basher with 2 gatormen which I didn't see coming. He hurts the night troll on my right pretty bad but the rest don't do too much. He positions his heavies where Mulg can't see them but within 8 inches and puts up death pact but critically chooses not to feat. At the end of 2 its 0-1 because he got a gatorman to contest my flag.
Turn 3: The night troll on my left kills a gator and puts a bit of damage on another. The axer charges in and threshers the rest of the unit. He does manage to kill any but does decent damage and puts rush on Mulg who walks through the forest to contest his flag and kill a wrastler. Ragnor puts pulverzer and rush on the mauler, the basher on my right clears him a path and he charges the second wrastler, killing it and knocking down the walker with a throw. The runebearer manages to knock down the unit in the right zone with shockwave and the night troll heals and beats on them a bit but doesn't kill any of them. No points are scored. My opponent goes in the tank for a good long while thinking he's done because he lost his heavies. When he finally moves forward he feats and just runs all his gators to contest everything and surround my caster. Critically he manages to get 3 gators on my stone, gets through my self-sac targets and snack him. No more stone and I'm a sad panda. No points are scored. Still 0-1 at the end of 3.
Turn 4: Now I'm actually in big trouble. He didn't hit any of my beasts so no whelps and I've got tons of fury out there. Every single beast besides Mulg, the mauler and a basher frenzies. I actually go in the tank a bit but decide that killing gators is more important than trying to hatch an assassination plan(Mulg was facing the wrong way and couldn't trample because of medium bases and the mauler couldn't see him and still had the walker to deal with). So I knock down most of center posse unit with the runebearer and just engage the rest in the right zone with my basher, Janissa kills one and the mauler kills the walker. Mulg kills several of the knocked down gators and snacks on them. My opponent then starts to beat on Ragnor but can't do much because I kept all my fury to transfer. He doesn't roll super well and just kind of moves stuff around to keep me jammed. Still 0-1 at the end of the turn.
Turn 5: Now incredibly I'm going up against the clock. Mulg frenzies and kills the last solo by his flag. I run the feralgeist to his flag. The mauler kills his snapper and gets up in his face. I decide just to knock down all his gators in the middle so my last stone scribe can run into the left zone to score. I kill everything but 2 gatormen in the right zone. I score 2. My opponent tries one last time to kill Ragnor with gatormen but fails. End of 5(2-1)
Turn 6: The mauler frenzies and put a bit of damage on Maelok. I don't do much else because I'm short on time but clear the zone to score two more. My opponent decides to concede because he can't score and can't contest the flag or the zone. End of 6(6-1).
Man he held out a lot longer than I thought he would. Never think the game is over because you take out the beasts. Arm 22 gators with 8 boxes and snacking are really hard to deal with. I probably could have got the scenario faster if I had recognized it and moved the Knot over in a position to get in a zone. Overall this is what I wanted this list to do. Tank an alpha and then whittle down the opposing force.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 12, 2018 18:28:31 GMT
Game 3: Grim versus Rahn Scenario was the pit. My opponent had two AFGs, Discordia, 2 chimaera's(the arc node light), stormfalls, the dragoon solo, the new nyss swordsmen and the rifle artillery piece. Not at all what I expected for a Rahn list. I can't really remember on what turns what happened but the general idea is I went first and my raiders went to the right against his archers and one unit of FEs went to the left with Braylen against the swordsmen while another went up the middle. There was building in the middle of the center zone for cover there. The WW went contest both the center and left zone. Pretty much he sat back and shot the crap out of me. One AFG killed 2/3 of my FEs on the left. The other, along with the stormfalls killed most of my raiders. My opponent made a big mistake and clumped all the swordsmen together right in front of the last FE and you can guess what happened. Braylen killed a couple and hit in a forest right outside the left zone. The WW killed some and put some damage on the objective. The other FEs finish them off. I couldn't score because I couldn't kill that objective over several turns but I did take the center early. The few remaining raiders managed to kill the most of the stormfalls from range with hard 9s(they were on a hill) and good deviations. The Bomber went to help and took a shot at the dragoon but failed to kill him on a hill(he had polarity shield on him). After that is was a cat and mouse game with him using momentum to keep my beasts out of the right zone. The dragoon charged in and did some good damage but didn't kill the bomber so I killed him the next turn. The left side saw the WW be pretty much worthless because he kept turning me around so I couldn't charge. I wasn't rolling very well on damage there though. A chimaera moved up to be killed by the pyre after it was knocked down with a mount attack. Discordia killed all my FEs and Braylen got hit by a AFG shot. I wasn't really sure if I would ever be able to clear that zone but my opponent clocked himself.
AFGs are mean. They are almost impossible to kill from range and can't be charged. You have to force them to come forward to contest Zones I guess. I would have been much more effective in this game if I had remembered to put return fire on ANYTHING. I kept having frenzy issues because I didn't use Grim's fury(awaken the stone comes back to bite me lol). I didn't have a lot of terrain on the flanks to work with so my raider were somewhat exposed but they still held up pretty good. I really like their guns. I realized after the game I had completely forgot to deploy my thumper crew, whoopsies!
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 12, 2018 19:39:29 GMT
Game 4: Grim Vs Haley 3 Scenario was standoff Haley brought ALL THE TRENCHERS!!!! 1 unit regular, 1 unit of long gunners, 1 unit commandos, 1 express team, 2 grenadiers, 2 busters, Hitch and Finn. I start for the fourth time of the day. Deploying my raiders and wagon to the left with the FEs in the middle and to the right with the battlegroup following. Grim is in the center. He deploys very strongly to my right(big surprise away from the WW). There is several large obstructions in the center so switch sides is not easy. Turn 1: I run everything on the left forward as far as I can. On the right I need the stone speed to get my FEs to the only cover on that side. The rest move up behind the building in the middle. My opponent spends most of his turn filling in his back zone and shooting the FEs on the right off the table. Advance deploy on everything sure speeds the game up! He cloud walls in the middle.
Turn 2: I don't play aggressively enough and don't move all the raiders into the zone. I am way to cautious with the WW and don't move it all the way forward. I put eyeless sight on the bomber and set the FEs on fire. They get speed from the stone and walk around the building into the cloud wall. Due to tough I only manage to kill 1-2 trenchers and put some decent damage into the busters. The bomber manages to kill the busters and Finn but dig in stops him from really wrecking the trencher brick. I move the swamp troll into the zone with swarm and say a prayer. He promptly knocks the swamp troll out with the express team and uses the rest of his shots to kill it. He sends a couple trenchers to engage the bomber and toe my back zone. He kills the FEs with baby Haley and some of the remaining trenchers. Thorn runs to stop the WW from advancing. My opponent has given up on the cloud wall. End of round(0-2)
Turn 3: Grim feats and puts MFD on the trenchers and kills on engaging the bomber. Then I realize the only thing the thumper can see is the trenchers and could have killed both, he takes out the second. The WW knocks down Thorn and shoots him a couple times but poor rolling means I don't kill him and I forget the slam on the mount attack. The raiders charge some trenchers and thorn but are limited because I need to stay in the zone. Most just reposition to be able to attack the next turn. Thorn is still almost completely operational but knocked down. The bomber kills the grenadier and toes the right zone. The pyre moves to keep him from being pushed out of the zone. My opponent then proceeds to use everything to kill the pyre(long gunners are now in position and get 2 shots a turn under go to ground). He only has the express team left but that's enough to push the bomber out of the zone and knock him down. He kills the raider I had toeing his back zone. He runs the dog to contest my back zone. Thorn stands up an contests the left zone. End of turn (2-4)
Turn 4: Now I'm feeling some scenario pressure. He's overwhelming me on the right and the obstruction in the middle is stopping me from hitting him hard from the left. The WW knocks down Thorn, kills him with the guns and repos far enough forward I can run the thumper into the left zone. I push hard with the raiders into his back zone and manage to score a huge charge on his objective. Grim finishes it off and I kill the dog with the bone grinders of all things to take the back zone. One of them runs to the right zone. The bomber doesn't get much done because I forgot to drop fury the turn before so he starts the turn with 1. I was also misunderstanding the go to ground rule and thought the long gunners were dug in. My opponent tried to tell me but we talked for a second and decided since we thought GTG gave them dig in we assumed they were. I get 3 points to none for him and take the lead. On the next turn my opponent kills the grinders and knocks the bomber out of the zone and down again but this time takes out his spirit and with GW he's pretty much useless now. The long gunners leave my objective on 5 boxes. He manages to kill all of my raiders in the zone between the remaining grenadier and the Haleys but to do this he has to move prime into threat range. (7-6)
Turn 5: So here is where I make the most critical decision in the game. I can either run away and try to clock him but my right flank is completely collapsing and it quite possible he could choose to just contest me and score and win in 7 rounds without doing anything. I decide that I have to go for the assassination. Haley future is corporeal and I walk forward and shoot her with the snare gun, boosting to hit and knocking her down. I then put MFD on the unit and try to hit Prime with a boosted man trap. No big surprise I miss needing a 10 but the deviation stays on her and knocks her down. No damage on the blast. I then move the WW forward and fire with the big gun, anything but double 1s and she's toast... There's the snake eyes... To rub salt in the wound I shoot her with the spray and roll box cars. The thumper and Braylen are both about 1 inch too far away and the bomber has to give up his movement and is too far away. Grim is sitting out in the open with no tranfers and promptly dies to a billing CRA trencher shots.
This was such a great game and once the salty taste of those double ones left my mouth I realized that I missed a lot of little things that could have helped me. My opponent did go back and read the GTG rule and we found out the long gunners would not have been dug in on some critical turns but that was my fault thinking I still knew the rule. I should have realized he couldn't push my left flank and been far more aggressive. Return fire would have been huge in this game but I completely forgot about it. Between the pyre, swamp, and bomber alone I would have got several more attacks into the tick of his ranks. I had Weald Secrets up for a bit on the WW but when he didn't have any non-dug in targets I let it drop and never thought to put it on the bomber to take out the express team which would have helped tremendously.
All in all, considering how much I forgot to do with Grim over 2 games and still being very much in them, I feel like he is still an extremely powerful caster. If I had maximized both games I have no doubt I would have won the second one easily. KC has some play into the right list and I think they are coming back. Ragnor was solid and I never felt out of a game with him. Spread the net as the first scenario was rough but there were things I could have done to win that one. I was really happy in the end going 2-2 and never being blown out of a game.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 12, 2018 21:32:02 GMT
Game 4: Grim Vs Haley 3 Scenario was standoff Haley brought ALL THE TRENCHERS!!!! 1 unit regular, 1 unit of long gunners, 1 unit commandos, 1 express team, 2 grenadiers, 2 busters, Hitch and Finn. I start for the fourth time of the day. Deploying my raiders and wagon to the left with the FEs in the middle and to the right with the battlegroup following. Grim is in the center. He deploys very strongly to my right(big surprise away from the WW). There is several large obstructions in the center so switch sides is not easy. Turn 1: I run everything on the left forward as far as I can. On the right I need the stone speed to get my FEs to the only cover on that side. The rest move up behind the building in the middle. My opponent spends most of his turn filling in his back zone and shooting the FEs on the right off the table. Advance deploy on everything sure speeds the game up! He cloud walls in the middle. Turn 2: I don't play aggressively enough and don't move all the raiders into the zone. I am way to cautious with the WW and don't move it all the way forward. I put eyeless sight on the bomber and set the FEs on fire. They get speed from the stone and walk around the building into the cloud wall. Due to tough I only manage to kill 1-2 trenchers and put some decent damage into the busters. The bomber manages to kill the busters and Finn but dig in stops him from really wrecking the trencher brick. I move the swamp troll into the zone with swarm and say a prayer. He promptly knocks the swamp troll out with the express team and uses the rest of his shots to kill it. He sends a couple trenchers to engage the bomber and toe my back zone. He kills the FEs with baby Haley and some of the remaining trenchers. Thorn runs to stop the WW from advancing. My opponent has given up on the cloud wall. End of round(0-2) Turn 3: Grim feats and puts MFD on the trenchers and kills on engaging the bomber. Then I realize the only thing the thumper can see is the trenchers and could have killed both, he takes out the second. The WW knocks down Thorn and shoots him a couple times but poor rolling means I don't kill him and I forget the slam on the mount attack. The raiders charge some trenchers and thorn but are limited because I need to stay in the zone. Most just reposition to be able to attack the next turn. Thorn is still almost completely operational but knocked down. The bomber kills the grenadier and toes the right zone. The pyre moves to keep him from being pushed out of the zone. My opponent then proceeds to use everything to kill the pyre(long gunners are now in position and get 2 shots a turn under go to ground). He only has the express team left but that's enough to push the bomber out of the zone and knock him down. He kills the raider I had toeing his back zone. He runs the dog to contest my back zone. Thorn stands up an contests the left zone. End of turn (2-4) Turn 4: Now I'm feeling some scenario pressure. He's overwhelming me on the right and the obstruction in the middle is stopping me from hitting him hard from the left. The WW knocks down Thorn, kills him with the guns and repos far enough forward I can run the thumper into the left zone. I push hard with the raiders into his back zone and manage to score a huge charge on his objective. Grim finishes it off and I kill the dog with the bone grinders of all things to take the back zone. One of them runs to the right zone. The bomber doesn't get much done because I forgot to drop fury the turn before so he starts the turn with 1. I was also misunderstanding the go to ground rule and thought the long gunners were dug in. My opponent tried to tell me but we talked for a second and decided since we thought GTG gave them dig in we assumed they were. I get 3 points to none for him and take the lead. On the next turn my opponent kills the grinders and knocks the bomber out of the zone and down again but this time takes out his spirit and with GW he's pretty much useless now. The long gunners leave my objective on 5 boxes. He manages to kill all of my raiders in the zone between the remaining grenadier and the Haleys but to do this he has to move prime into threat range. (7-6) Turn 5: So here is where I make the most critical decision in the game. I can either run away and try to clock him but my right flank is completely collapsing and it quite possible he could choose to just contest me and score and win in 7 rounds without doing anything. I decide that I have to go for the assassination. Haley future is corporeal and I walk forward and shoot her with the snare gun, boosting to hit and knocking her down. I then put MFD on the unit and try to hit Prime with a boosted man trap. No big surprise I miss needing a 10 but the deviation stays on her and knocks her down. No damage on the blast. I then move the WW forward and fire with the big gun, anything but double 1s and she's toast... There's the snake eyes... To rub salt in the wound I shoot her with the spray and roll box cars. The thumper and Braylen are both about 1 inch too far away and the bomber has to give up his movement and is too far away. Grim is sitting out in the open with no tranfers and promptly dies to a billing CRA trencher shots. This was such a great game and once the salty taste of those double ones left my mouth I realized that I missed a lot of little things that could have helped me. My opponent did go back and read the GTG rule and we found out the long gunners would not have been dug in on some critical turns but that was my fault thinking I still knew the rule. I should have realized he couldn't push my left flank and been far more aggressive. Return fire would have been huge in this game but I completely forgot about it. Between the pyre, swamp, and bomber alone I would have got several more attacks into the tick of his ranks. I had Weald Secrets up for a bit on the WW but when he didn't have any non-dug in targets I let it drop and never thought to put it on the bomber to take out the express team which would have helped tremendously. All in all, considering how much I forgot to do with Grim over 2 games and still being very much in them, I feel like he is still an extremely powerful caster. If I had maximized both games I have no doubt I would have won the second one easily. KC has some play into the right list and I think they are coming back. Ragnor was solid and I never felt out of a game with him. Spread the net as the first scenario was rough but there were things I could have done to win that one. I was really happy in the end going 2-2 and never being blown out of a game. You are correct that the Go To Ground minifeat is not Dig-in, and only lasts for one round. That said, your initial misunderstanding of Go To Ground is a common one, common enough that some podcasts have been perpetuating it, so don't feel bad. =)
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Post by Trollock on Mar 13, 2018 11:53:38 GMT
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 13, 2018 16:30:34 GMT
Happy?
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Post by Trollock on Mar 14, 2018 12:21:51 GMT
Happy? Much more so! Thanks for the reports.
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