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Post by punk on Feb 22, 2018 22:39:36 GMT
Doesn't seem like a wise investment. 5 pow 14s? Might as well just charge in the mist rider for the charge bonus and better dmg out put. Not to get too off point re: lists. But do what you do. Fyi Kruger1 does the the same thing with trackers, tendrels, and prey, only more attacks. I am not happy with the guys that are net listing Tom Guan's lists. I think he is just playing them for fun. He is successful with them because he is a very good player, but those were not designed for a team tournament. Well, would be hilarious if they can pull it off. Bald1 has a lot of play in the current environment; the druids build is unique simply due to the fact it's using a unit generally viewd as a weak spot in the lineup. WE&SJ double downs on their def tech. While admission of trying his build only after I toyed around more with my Brun&Lug, I think Mist Riders have some play here. There is about 18-21 point's of room. I've used single druids:mistrider, double wyrds and wardens in place of Wrath... double druids, which seem to have more of a place. The netdeck on this might just make people more open to trying different things. Hard to view a theme that people dislike and a unit that has been on a very low swing since mk3 anything other then a positve attempt at something different. I encourage the outside the box on this.
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Feb 23, 2018 3:34:41 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 23, 2018 3:34:41 GMT
punkBaldur 1 does little for mist riders. Mat 5 is just awful and he really doesn’t help them in that respect. Blast immunity + no Knockdown is nice but his control is so small they have to clump to benefit. I can see the tech for Druids. Def 15 in the clouds, Star crossed, no spells, no Knockdown, stealth, elemental immunity, blast immunity all layered together seems really strong. The issue is, it’s all so darn conditional. I can think of so many things (particularly shooting) that can just get around it. And at the cost per model, and the unit size, I just don’t see how it works. The big get problem is, how do you kill things? Is it all scenario? Does the woldwrath do so much work? I’ve seen Druids and mist riders in action, and outside of an S tier support spell like Hand of fate, they do almost nothing offensively. Baldur1 in Bones just seems stronger. Hard hitting, durable, flexible in ADR, and fits well into most pairings. I just do not understand how people are making Druids worth it
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Feb 23, 2018 12:08:34 GMT
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Post by punk on Feb 23, 2018 12:08:34 GMT
punkBaldur 1 does little for mist riders. Mat 5 is just awful and he really doesn’t help them in that respect. Blast immunity + no Knockdown is nice but his control is so small they have to clump to benefit. [br I dont disagree and I thought so to; a buddy had been leaning on me to try them more. After they charge in, pow 14s, boosted hit boosted dmg, 16/17s defArm. So repo3, 2" reach an Bald feat gives them a pretty solid distance from anything that was behind initial target you probably blew through if you charged. Combo druid push and KD and it allows the riders to get a 2nd charge Is it worth 20 points? Probably no; I'll tell you more tomorrow after new test. We like ravagers charging in but hate how they never have a 2nd opportunity to do anything. Mistriders could be that. ------ Anyway OTC list's if anything compared to ATC lists shows a dip in Circle popularity. ATC had solid faction splits, OTC seems to have divided that up a bit more.
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Feb 23, 2018 14:21:14 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 23, 2018 14:21:14 GMT
Pow 14 are not exactly doing much. Especially when you need 9’a to hit Def 14. Also, def. 15 under SK and the cloud.
Being 5” away from whatever you charged is typically not far enough in baldur1 Feat Turn.
It seems like it works on paper but when you actually start putting them on the table all you the weaknesses are exposed.
As far as ravagers go, one extra model (2 with the UA for just 1 point more) higher pow, significantly higher Mat, tough, heart eater and overtake minifeat and Vengence just make them...better.
No Knockdown tough and pow 15 on the axes is strong. Treewalker is also strong.
I’m not saying you can’t build an entire list supporting the 20 point unit and make it work, I’m just saying, there are way better options.
Also, I’m sorry, but secret masters is a bad theme.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Feb 23, 2018 14:40:31 GMT
Hello all! I am the above mentioned idiot running the storm raptor and have come here to defend the honor of my family and clan.
The short version of the story is that I got my storm raptor all painted up and wanted to show it off to the maximum number of people (otc has a buttload of people!), and built my list from the perspective of showcasing the raptor, rather than being a strictly competitive list (it's still a good list! I believe I'm something like 7-1 with it, with the loss being to goddang storm division)
Going in I figured out pretty early on I wanted the raptor on Una1 for bird's eye and guardian beast, so my choices were secret masters and call of the wild. CotW wasn't working out due to the complete lack of unit options and wold beasts. If you could take wold wights for the shield guards that the raptor desperately needs, it would be fine, but since you can't your minion option demands you take valkyries. This prevents you from taking any other units, so you're left with an entirely living beast army, which is frankly pretty terrible these days (Kromac2 can pull it off, but it's a really, really boring play experience. And I'm not buying 8 scarsfell griffons)
Having settled on secrets masters, my choices are either A) wold wights for shield guards and nyss hunters as minion option B) valkyries as shield guards and druids or mist riders as units
I went with the mist riders for the bonus assassination potential that was mentioned earlier in the thread. I actually only need 4s or 3s to hit the storm raptor (mag 6 against def 12 is 6's, +2 for back strike for 4's, +2 for affliction on the storm raptor for anything but snake eyes). The storm raptor also doesn't benefit from +4 defense for being in melee since it's a gargantuan. The mist riders also work very well with Tanith, if she gets affliction on something the mist riders become effectively mat7, which will allow their impact attacks to actually hit and deal the auto 1 point of damage, triggering battle wizard during movement before the other mist riders have chosen charge targets. It lets me zap dudes with chain lightning to open up and choose my charge lanes.
Mist riders are also rad as hell visually (goats!!!!), so that's a bonus, too!
Tanith supports the storm raptor really well, especially in secret masters. I begin the game with guardian beast up on una, scything touch on the raptor, and admonition on loki, and proceed to spend turn 1 just running everything up the table. Getting tanith an extra 3-6" up the table than you normally would is a big advantage and lets her start making use of her shadow bind gun earlier on in the game. Between that and affliction, I can fix the storm raptor's lousy MAT, and scything touch puts its damage up to a more respectable level. The combination of scything touch and sky fire enable the above mentioned mist rider assassination, but it also turns the raptor's plasma nimbus into pow 14s as well, which can really ruin people's day.
Went with pureblood over feral because it enables more of a ranged game with the raptor, which I'm trying to settle into. My early games usually saw me send it flying down the field at the first juicy target which ends up with it dying on a counter attack to 12 pt warjacks. Then I'm playing 20 points down and have to do endless Loki bullshit to bail myself out, which is a lot of work!
Guardian beast can be pretty funny. If Una is basing the raptor, a 1" reach warjack can't get into melee with it without immediately taking a boosted attack roll that causes disruption. I've also used it to trigger the raptor's gun to wipe out models trying to toe a zone/contest my flag.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Feb 23, 2018 14:42:13 GMT
Secret masters + valkyries also lets me shield guard to them, have them tough, and then sac pawn to them. It's incredibly annoying for the opponent to get surprised by that.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 23, 2018 16:37:08 GMT
chuggyg Very interesting stuff there. I am just surprised its working so well for you. What do you typically drop the list into? I will admit Tanith with affliction and her gun really enables/fixes mist riders biggest issue. I originally had planned on using the unit to handle super high arm single wound units like sentinels and Iron fangs, but it got pretty cumbersome trying to enable the mist riders. Interested to see how you preform at the OTC Good Luck!
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 23, 2018 17:19:11 GMT
Ha HA!!!! ... you've now explained your plan to me and shall be summarily destroyed for your foolishness at the tournament! Seriously though nice write up and its good to see some experimentation. If you end up facing Focused Fury say hi to the Protectorate player
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Feb 23, 2018 18:08:41 GMT
I LOVE fighting against menoth with that list so I'll say more than hi if we run into each other...
As for drops, I've typically designated that list as my warmachine drop, since Disruption makes a huge difference when it comes to the Raptor's survivability. Cygnar's been a bum matchup for me thus far, since storm division is so painful, and my game against khador relies very heavily on the mist rider assassination thing. I'm hoping to target ret and menoth players primarily, and I think I've got game into cryx and certain khador pairings. I think I'm behind the gun for the team tournament for deciding matchups, so I'll be looking to put myself into spots where I can drop the raptor as much as possible.
I'll have to post a picture later, I got it painted for me and it came out really nicely.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Feb 23, 2018 18:16:58 GMT
People kept calling it a zapdos so we went with ho-oh colours
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Post by Nahualli on Feb 23, 2018 19:40:35 GMT
chuggyg It is nice when we have insight on the list design, thanks for that. Please take some notes on your matches and report them here, at least for me is very useful since I don't have a lot of opportunities to play with my fun Raptor list. I would like to ask you, what is your plan against Skorne Double Turtles if you somehow get paired with that list?
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Feb 23, 2018 21:11:32 GMT
chuggyg It is nice when we have insight on the list design, thanks for that. Please take some notes on your matches and report them here, at least for me is very useful since I don't have a lot of opportunities to play with my fun Raptor list. I would like to ask you, what is your plan against Skorne Double Turtles if you somehow get paired with that list? Chuggyg, thanks for the description of your list and the thoughts behind it. This is off topic, by Nahualli’s question about your plan to face double turtles made me hope that after the Circle CID we’ll be able to run a double Raptors list! That would be pretty to see!
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Feb 23, 2018 21:32:55 GMT
I have high hopes for the raptor after the garg/colossal changes in the last 2 CIDs!!
If I somehow run into double turtles I'd probably dump my Morvahna2 list into it, which is as follows:
Morv2 -Stalker -Feral -Wold Wight Gallows Grove Lanyssa War Wolf Reeves -UA Wolves (min) -UA Skinwalkers -UA Shifting Stones -UA Lynus + Edrea
With Fog of War up he needs 10s (12s if i mini feat!) to hit my reeves and 8s to hit my skinwalkers with his gun, and anything else he'd want to target is going to be stealth from prowl and/or too high defense for him to hit (he'll need 10s at best to hit morv2, and that's if I don't find a hill or cover. I'm sure as heck never going to have her in a spot where he can take an aim bonus.) He'll only get 1 turn of defensive strike to deter my heavies from coming in and smooshing his dudes. If I can get a decent forest on the board I can park the stalker behind it and can control a 13" bubble with him. I'll leverage the heck out of Lightning Strike on Morv2 and the Stalker and play a long attrition game, which heavily favors Morvahna2 with her feat.
I know from playing against skorne previously that Morv2 can easily snipe out agonizers with Sunder Spirit and 5" reposition, and with the ranged game favoring me, I'll play towards the edges of the board, clear the little bastards out, and force him to eat the big charge turn from my ambushing wolves.
There's some worry I can get bullied out of the zones, so it might come down to which scenario/terrain setup we'd get.
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Post by Nahualli on Feb 23, 2018 21:44:40 GMT
Sounds reasonable, hope to hear from you soon for your reports!
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 24, 2018 3:27:05 GMT
I have high hopes for the raptor after the garg/colossal changes in the last 2 CIDs!! If I somehow run into double turtles I'd probably dump my Morvahna2 list into it, which is as follows: Morv2 -Stalker -Feral -Wold Wight Gallows Grove Lanyssa War Wolf Reeves -UA Wolves (min) -UA Skinwalkers -UA Shifting Stones -UA Lynus + Edrea With Fog of War up he needs 10s (12s if i mini feat!) to hit my reeves and 8s to hit my skinwalkers with his gun, and anything else he'd want to target is going to be stealth from prowl and/or too high defense for him to hit (he'll need 10s at best to hit morv2, and that's if I don't find a hill or cover. I'm sure as heck never going to have her in a spot where he can take an aim bonus.) He'll only get 1 turn of defensive strike to deter my heavies from coming in and smooshing his dudes. If I can get a decent forest on the board I can park the stalker behind it and can control a 13" bubble with him. I'll leverage the heck out of Lightning Strike on Morv2 and the Stalker and play a long attrition game, which heavily favors Morvahna2 with her feat. I know from playing against skorne previously that Morv2 can easily snipe out agonizers with Sunder Spirit and 5" reposition, and with the ranged game favoring me, I'll play towards the edges of the board, clear the little bastards out, and force him to eat the big charge turn from my ambushing wolves. There's some worry I can get bullied out of the zones, so it might come down to which scenario/terrain setup we'd get. How do you kill anything with that? haha Derp turtles are tough as nails!
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