|
|
Post by sundaytaco on Feb 16, 2018 17:25:59 GMT
Alright. I'd consider myself a fairly competant player, and very much enjoy focussed list building and execution. Many of my lists have gimmicks and many of those gimmicks will work fairly well at local levels and even in semi-non-local steamrollers. I am a good enough player that I can probably give you a good game with whatever list I play. That being said, I want some love for our lights. I've been toying around with a Horgle 2 BoH list and aside from the rude armor skew on the longriders/warder, something that I have noticed is that if you hold feat turn until something like an axer or Earthborn (buffed with +1 str from stone and rush), they can usually 1 round a heavy or get very close to doing so on feat turn. This requires that the target is on fire for the free charge and of course the feat. An axer on feat turn puts out 4 fully boosted pow 15's witch, obviously will not kill a khador heavy, but it will do 22 damage on average which is quite crippling coming from a light. This has made me think about how good the basher would fill this same role for 7 points and all the boosted hits are sure to trigger a crit stagger also. Time and time again, my lights are doing heavy liftinng with this feat, and obviously it is very strong as a feat for beasts, since free charges and fully boosted everything is like spending an extra 9-16 fury! Anyway, this raises the better pondering thought. Why do our lights seems to be slightly underwhelming. Looking at their stats, it seems like they need to spend 2-3 fury to do something that a nice solo could do. Ex. a pyre troll charges to clear 1-2 def 13 models. Charges for 1, needs 8s to hit, either have 4 chances at 2 hard 8s or 2 chances at boosted 8s. either way he's full after killing just 2 dudes. Even after hitting, the low end pows combined with low mat makes fighting other heavies neigh impossible. The lights do have a few nice things going for them however, Most of them have a ranged attack as well as a melee attack and also, and many of the desireable lights have some crit effect that is ball busting, whether it is on a melee or ranged attack (smite, freeze, stagger, disruption, consume, fire), and have some wierd proximity-based abilities (repulse, freezer, chiller). The lights seem to have the tech, but not the stats to back it up, they always seem to me a .7:1 investment. I think if you can either fix the mat/rat, power, or general efficiency of your beasts, they might start to pull their respecive weights. I have yet to test this on the table, but this is kind of where im thinking. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bgLiYiYjo7h0s0hiXiXiX04jq6R6Rfp0l0m2NTrollbloods Army - 73 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Horgle 2) Horgle, the Anvil [+29] - Ice Troll [9] - Ice Troll [9] - Pyre Troll [8] - Storm Troll [9] - Swamp Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] It's pretty straightforward, Solid ground is a decent buff for groups of stuff, bashers mat fix and trade on feat turn, and feat turn is strong granted you can trade into 2-3 heavies with your lights. Obviously it isn't the strongest list but I think it has some game. The feat is really the only thing that helps these boys and it really leans into the crit effects and good trades. Next is another idea for some light swarm. This will not help the pow for trading, so I have included a mauler, but between guided fire, chiller, and kill shot, these troll boys suddenly get very efficient. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0b029Des0s0hiXiX0404jq7d6R6Rfp0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Gunnbjorn 1) Captain Gunnbjorn [+28] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dozer & Smigg [18] - Swamp Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Winter Troll [8] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [4] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] unfortunately we don't get a bunch of free charges and boosted melee attacks like the previous list, but this one has a mauler to compensate. Kill shot on the winter trolls can be powerful into infantry and the snipe threat of d&s can keep enemy support honest. Either way, i'm probably going to give these a whirl sometime soon. I'm trying to keep the lights to a max and heavies to a min. If you think of another caster that could work with this idea, i'd love to talk about it. I think Borka 2 might have some play here because of counter charge, maybe doomy1/3 too! who knows. The key is a hit/damge fixer to keep fury efficiency high! |
|
skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206 
|
Post by skurkious on Feb 16, 2018 19:41:47 GMT
This is a list I've been working on:
Ragnor (PoD)
- Runebearer
- Mulg
- Mauler
- 2x Basher
- 2x Night Troll
- Axer
- Slag
Whelps
Janissa
Feralgeist
Dhunian Knot
Max Krielstone
- SSE
For specialists I can swap in a storm troll, earthborn or Pyre(with or without Horgle).
I feel like the feat and earth's sactuary+Janissa's hill really helps me deliver them. Night trolls are a great vanguard with stealth and eyeless sight(for all those pesky clouds). The axer helps speed everything up and can be a threat late game. Mulg and the mauler can do the heavy lifting for over arm 20 but the lights can deal with less armor with rage or pulverizer and +1 from the stone. The basher or shockwave can help deal with high defense. Mulg's new kit works great in this list and helps get that critical shockwave in the right place.
|
|
|
|
Post by ninjastars on Feb 16, 2018 20:17:46 GMT
I mean the classic is calandra with elemental lights. Obviously this worked in mk 2 because of the theme, but there are elements to calandra that make light spam good. Like horgle, she has a damage enhancement feat, which helps get those lights trade up with enemy heavies, and soothing song works better with lightspam than anything else.
Grim2 takes advantage of lights combined arms chassis as well, and mortality lets lights punch up on a turn by turn basis rather than depending on a one time feat.
|
|
A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
|
Post by A-Mo on Feb 16, 2018 20:26:33 GMT
Why do our lights seems to be slightly underwhelming? Because alot of them are. It seems like PP designed them for MkIII with the assumption that they'd all have all the buffs, all the time. I feel like the Axer is the only staple, and the rest lean more towards "corner case" situations. I haven't had any chance to try the new Basher or Ice Troll, but they seem like well designed models. Not OP, but could be thrown into a variety of list types. I'd suggest a couple tweaks to your beast load outs. Horgle2 - Get a Mauler in there. If you're banking on doing all you're work on the feat turn, a canny opponent is going to take advantage of it. Rage will help you do things late game. The Swamp Troll seems more like a cute options in this list. I'd cut him. I'm also not a fan of the 2 Ice Trolls if you don't have rage. They seem better served as a Bomber if you don't want to go the Mauler route. Gunny - Again, I'd swap the Swamp Troll out. Between the wall and hill you can make, I'm not sure what he's bringing to the table. Another beater light or night troll seems like a better option here. |
|
|
|
Post by sundaytaco on Feb 16, 2018 22:30:41 GMT
@a-mo A lot of of what I posted is just theory but defintely off the table is adding a mauler and a bomber, which is a 34 point investement of heavies, which isn't what I'm trying to do here haha. The swamp is cute in horgle, but in GB, dual attack and killshot is very useful, especially with crit consume. he essentially has 4 initials, which isn't too shabby.
|
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Feb 16, 2018 22:51:56 GMT
I think our light beasts are generally more utility pieces than fighters. And some of them might be over-costed for that utility, sure. But a few are more fighters than helpers and then they throw us for a loop! The Slag Troll is a good example.
|
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Feb 16, 2018 22:56:54 GMT
But the ultimate light troll spam list is Grissel's Missles! conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0b589D9Dczczcz5L0hiXiXiXjq6R6R0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Grissel 1) Grissel Bloodsong, Fell Caller [+29] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Night Troll [7] - Night Troll [7] - Night Troll [7] - Slag Troll [10] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] |
|
A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
|
Post by A-Mo on Feb 16, 2018 23:50:12 GMT
@a-mo A lot of of what I posted is just theory but defintely off the table is adding a mauler and a bomber, which is a 34 point investement of heavies, which isn't what I'm trying to do here haha. The swamp is cute in horgle, but in GB, dual attack and killshot is very useful, especially with crit consume. he essentially has 4 initials, which isn't too shabby. For what its worth, I meant one or the other in the Horgel list. If you have a Mauler, the two Ice Trolls could work. If no Mauler, Bomber seems better than the two Icic-olls. Not buying it on the Swamp Troll with Gunny. Seems like you're envisioning the perfect scenario. Regarding either list, get'em on the table and let us know how it goes. I'm always happy to be proven wrong when being a grump about Trolls!  |
|
mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
|
Post by mazog on Feb 17, 2018 0:12:44 GMT
A-mo, speaking from experience, swamp trolls do more on the table than on paper. The control effect of the tongue is amazing! The Animus is cool, but not something I use most rounds outside of Borka2. Counter-charge with swarm is hilarious, and makes gagantua cry.
|
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Feb 17, 2018 20:56:18 GMT
Trollbloods Army - 73 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Horgle 2) Horgle, the Anvil [+29] - Ice Troll [9] - Ice Troll [9] - Pyre Troll [8] - Storm Troll [9] - Swamp Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] A couple of points. Even though you can kill a heavy on the feat, if you do not have access to Rage, you literally cant kill a heavy on any other turn. That wont fly in the long run imo. The Knot is not super important, and dropping that and a light allows you to take a Mauler. That means you can be threatening even on non-feat turns. The Night Troll is something that should be of interest. It will do more damage than a Basher in almost any circumstance, and it will murder a lot of things on the feat. Having 3 initials is a thing. If you can get a free charge, you can make 6 attacks, all of them boosted. If you have access to Rage that animus will cause 18 damage for 2 Fury. Not having it is insane imo. You say that Solid ground is a decent spell, but why do you think that? You do not bring high DEF, so ppl arent trying to knock you down to get around that. The lights do not really care about blast damage, and you have very few tough models, so no special synergy there. It would be a great spell if you had lots of fragile infantry with tough, but in this list it seems pointless. Inviolable resolve IS a great spell to have, but you have no target for it. It doesnt have to be a King, but a Bouncer will be incredibly annoying at ARM 23. It hits roughly as hard as the other lights, so why not just switch one in there? My only table time experience with light spam in MK3 is with Grissel 1. She works differently than Horgle, cause she wants to make ONE thing hit really hard, but she can do it every turn. I have only played that list a handful of times, but i have never lost with it. |
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Feb 18, 2018 5:53:32 GMT
Alright. I'd consider myself a fairly competant player, and very much enjoy focussed list building and execution. Many of my lists have gimmicks and many of those gimmicks will work fairly well at local levels and even in semi-non-local steamrollers. I am a good enough player that I can probably give you a good game with whatever list I play. That being said, I want some love for our lights. I've been toying around with a Horgle 2 BoH list and aside from the rude armor skew on the longriders/warder, something that I have noticed is that if you hold feat turn until something like an axer or Earthborn (buffed with +1 str from stone and rush), they can usually 1 round a heavy or get very close to doing so on feat turn. This requires that the target is on fire for the free charge and of course the feat. An axer on feat turn puts out 4 fully boosted pow 15's witch, obviously will not kill a khador heavy, but it will do 22 damage on average which is quite crippling coming from a light. This has made me think about how good the basher would fill this same role for 7 points and all the boosted hits are sure to trigger a crit stagger also. Time and time again, my lights are doing heavy liftinng with this feat, and obviously it is very strong as a feat for beasts, since free charges and fully boosted everything is like spending an extra 9-16 fury! Anyway, this raises the better pondering thought. Why do our lights seems to be slightly underwhelming. Looking at their stats, it seems like they need to spend 2-3 fury to do something that a nice solo could do. Ex. a pyre troll charges to clear 1-2 def 13 models. Charges for 1, needs 8s to hit, either have 4 chances at 2 hard 8s or 2 chances at boosted 8s. either way he's full after killing just 2 dudes. Even after hitting, the low end pows combined with low mat makes fighting other heavies neigh impossible. The lights do have a few nice things going for them however, Most of them have a ranged attack as well as a melee attack and also, and many of the desireable lights have some crit effect that is ball busting, whether it is on a melee or ranged attack (smite, freeze, stagger, disruption, consume, fire), and have some wierd proximity-based abilities (repulse, freezer, chiller). The lights seem to have the tech, but not the stats to back it up, they always seem to me a .7:1 investment. I think if you can either fix the mat/rat, power, or general efficiency of your beasts, they might start to pull their respecive weights. I have yet to test this on the table, but this is kind of where im thinking. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bgLiYiYjo7h0s0hiXiXiX04jq6R6Rfp0l0m2NTrollbloods Army - 73 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Horgle 2) Horgle, the Anvil [+29] - Ice Troll [9] - Ice Troll [9] - Pyre Troll [8] - Storm Troll [9] - Swamp Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] It's pretty straightforward, Solid ground is a decent buff for groups of stuff, bashers mat fix and trade on feat turn, and feat turn is strong granted you can trade into 2-3 heavies with your lights. Obviously it isn't the strongest list but I think it has some game. The feat is really the only thing that helps these boys and it really leans into the crit effects and good trades. Next is another idea for some light swarm. This will not help the pow for trading, so I have included a mauler, but between guided fire, chiller, and kill shot, these troll boys suddenly get very efficient. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0b029Des0s0hiXiX0404jq7d6R6Rfp0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Gunnbjorn 1) Captain Gunnbjorn [+28] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dozer & Smigg [18] - Swamp Troll [8] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Winter Troll [8] - Winter Troll [8] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Troll Whelps [4] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] unfortunately we don't get a bunch of free charges and boosted melee attacks like the previous list, but this one has a mauler to compensate. Kill shot on the winter trolls can be powerful into infantry and the snipe threat of d&s can keep enemy support honest. Either way, i'm probably going to give these a whirl sometime soon. I'm trying to keep the lights to a max and heavies to a min. If you think of another caster that could work with this idea, i'd love to talk about it. I think Borka 2 might have some play here because of counter charge, maybe doomy1/3 too! who knows. The key is a hit/damge fixer to keep fury efficiency high! With regards to the Horgle2 list, you say that you really want to.maximise his feat but you only have a single Pyre Troll and Horgle2 that can set things on fire. He does have Firestarter as a spell but all.lf your beasts have single shot attacks with no AOE so getting much use out of the feat will be hard, especially if the opponents have a shield guard or two to soak up the Pyre troll shot. I would suggest getting either another Pyre in there or a Bomber. |
|
mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
|
Post by mazog on Feb 18, 2018 14:15:44 GMT
Or croaks. That would let you set a lot more things on fire.
|
|
joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
|
Post by joedj on Feb 18, 2018 17:08:32 GMT
Light spam thoughts:
Free charges for lights is effectively 1 more attack.
I immediately think Lanyssa (1 target Hunter's Mark), Kolgrima (option for multi-target Hunter's Mark), Grim2 (1 target Blood Lure), Doomie2 (BG during Feat).
KSB + SSE is required for +1 STR in as big a bubble as possible.
1 Mauler, or Rok if allowed in theme, well protected! (awaiting a TB Gorax to live the dream - Madrak's character lights Bron and Jor are LONG OVERDUE!)
Built-in Pathfinder is almost Rush not required, so Basher, Ice, Swamp, Winter, in order of P&S. 7 pt Basher(s) putting out 4 P&S 18 attacks have been effective for me.
With a deluge of lights, TB Warbeast engagement is not difficult but inevitable, so SSChronicler's Charge of the Trolls becomes easy to acquire, but what unit is worthy? Perhaps Warders with 2" melee who can also eat shots that may dissuade concentration of fire into one light.
The change to Unyielding, and option for Wailing on a 'disposable' light makes me think of Grissel2, for ARM 20 lights vs fewer charging units.
Slags vs Warjacks is gold, second wave.
|
|
|
|
Post by sundaytaco on Feb 19, 2018 1:30:08 GMT
A couple of points. Even though you can kill a heavy on the feat, if you do not have access to Rage, you literally cant kill a heavy on any other turn. That wont fly in the long run imo. The Knot is not super important, and dropping that and a light allows you to take a Mauler. That means you can be threatening even on non-feat turns. I understand your trepidation and desire for a mauler, but I disagree on this point, And I also disagree with the point that the knot is uneccesary. One of the neat things about the lights is that they have very meaningful crit effets. Not only does the knot help to empasise that, but the serenity rule helps the farther back line (axer for example) not be a fury strain on the caster. following feat turns a basher can do ~14 to an arm 20 heavy, assumubg everything hits. While that is not ball busting, the fact that they are 7 points means that you are able to throw a second light in if necessary. Also, the fact that you bring a mauler means that now you prioritize the +3 str as an animus, meaning your threats are 10 inch fixed threat. With regards to the night troll, it can't have +3 str , +2 movement and pathefinder. It is severly lacking when it doesn't have pathfinder, and only clocks in at the 9" threat To everyone else, Thank you for your input, I can't wait to get some batreps up! |
|
mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
|
Post by mattmcd on Feb 19, 2018 2:15:29 GMT
So part of your argument against the Mauler is that it’s animus is so good that it would get priority and the other part of the argument is that it’s unnecessary.
It’s certainly a unique perspective. I’ll be interested to see how it is on the table in your battle reports.
|
|
