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Post by Trollock on Feb 5, 2018 9:51:10 GMT
I think the nerf was probably warranted. Even if you never actually saw Madrak surf, you always needed to play like he could. If there was a single infantry model within 11" from him (13" with Lanyssa) that meant that Madrak could potentially kill your ENTIRE ARMY. I played Madrak 1 (same feat) back in MK2 a lot, and ppl tried and tried to spread out their forces to prevent Mulg from eating everything. It basically does not work if you have scenario to consider (SR2017 would have made this even worse). Madrak himself "surfing" was WAY more dangerous than Mulg ever was in MK2. He goes to a POW 15-16 weapon master with virtually unlimited fury. He is also trivially MAT 10 and ignores tough (the thing that stopped Mulg some times). You had to play so scared against Madrak that you basically could not bring any infantry in your list. This contributed to the "death of infantry" we saw back in the beginning of MK3. In a meta where you only play heavies, Madrak is fine, but with todays theme forces, he could potentially single handedly invalidate a majority of them. I gladly give up an OP caster to have a balanced and fun meta. If i had to play against 10 jacks in every single game (and being forced to play PoD and nothing else as my back up, if i (god forbid) had to play against Madrak 2 myself) I would be way less happy with the game. Madraks poor showing at the 2016 WTC was due to him playing against very good players (who knew how to avoid the surf of death) who usually played nothing but heavies since they could pair up the guy with heavy spam against Madrak. Oh, and the scenario packet was way less live, so staying back outside threat range was way more viable. He was strong and he was bad for the game. Now he is not bad for the game, and he is still pretty OK. Ill swallow that pill and be thankful!
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Post by greenjello on Feb 5, 2018 13:00:27 GMT
I agree with Trollock about the surfing. Played Madrak1 a ton in mkII.
The thing you need to understand is just how far you need to spread out to avoid it. Consider that everything that's going to surf is on a minimum of a 1 1/2" base, and usually with 2" reach. Add in 1" of movement, and essentially you can go from one "island" to another that is 6 1/2" away. Tough and enemy heavies are pretty much the only thing stopping the pain train.
In mkII was able to have Madrak1 kill 20-30 models in a game, and then make it to the opposing caster and finish him off. Now this was a little unusual, in that we were playing a team game, and they were more tightly packed than you would expect, but it was not a fun experience for my opponents.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 5, 2018 17:57:14 GMT
I was looking at running madrak in my steamroller pairing and had a question about Grim Salvation and what gets around it. Is it just power attacks or do magic attacks ignore it too?
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Feb 5, 2018 19:33:06 GMT
I was looking at running madrak in my steamroller pairing and had a question about Grim Salvation and what gets around it. Is it just power attacks or do magic attacks ignore it too? Power Attacks, Magical Attacks (they're all * Attacks and therefore not basic attacks), any * Attack (thresher for example, combo smite / strike), e-leaps, et cetera.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 5, 2018 20:15:25 GMT
I was looking at running madrak in my steamroller pairing and had a question about Grim Salvation and what gets around it. Is it just power attacks or do magic attacks ignore it too? Power Attacks, Magical Attacks (they're all * Attacks and therefore not basic attacks), any * Attack (thresher for example, combo smite / strike), e-leaps, et cetera. A charge attack doesn't ignore it right? Does the strafe ranged attack ignore it then? Armor piercing on an angelius?
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 5, 2018 21:07:02 GMT
Power Attacks, Magical Attacks (they're all * Attacks and therefore not basic attacks), any * Attack (thresher for example, combo smite / strike), e-leaps, et cetera. A charge attack doesn't ignore it right? Does the strafe ranged attack ignore it then? Armor piercing on an angelius? Like gdnerd said, if it isn't making basic attacks against him than it gets past it. A basic charge attack doesn't get around it while a special charge attack does. I'm not sure what strafe is but if it was a star attack that didn't produce basic attacks than yes it would get around it. The angelius's tail attack is a * attack so it does get around it
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 6, 2018 0:09:15 GMT
Strafe was what the seraph used to have. Might not exist in MK3. Multifire on Dynamo is close. That's a star attack so would get around it. So GS is nothing to bank on but at least will cause the opponent to have to think a little.
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Post by allinontrolls on Feb 6, 2018 5:58:58 GMT
I believe that their are several lists where madrak is still strong against. He enables even kriel warriors to be feared. Sure he has a lot of poor matchups like nemo 3 ,funline or other shooting lists. But he could be an answer to handle skarre1 or the troll mirror.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Feb 6, 2018 8:36:44 GMT
Just to mirror what many have said here. He needed to be nerfed, he wasn't strong at the top levels of the game, but he was horrific to play against for most players. That said the nerf was poorly done. At the start of MK3 they swapped the feats of him and Madrak1 for "Fluff reasons" Apparently granting 1 extra attacks to your whole battle group was a poor representation of the unleashed fury of Madrak 2. The problem is that the nerf makes it even more ridiculous. Madrak now stands by and watches his army go on a frenzy while he stands by calmly watching. They fixed Madrak 1 and made him interesting and cool and unique. In order to make Madrak2 interesting and fluffy and playabale they need to give him his old feat back. Sadly he might be a bottom 4 caster right now with Grissel1, Jarl and Madrak3. That said we have so many really good casters that it feels churlish to complain about the few that aren't. P.S. I know some of you love Jarl, don't need to hear it
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Post by Trollock on Feb 6, 2018 10:05:13 GMT
P.S. I know some of you love Jarl, don't need to hear it Butt! Butt! Butt!
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Feb 6, 2018 16:15:12 GMT
Does anyone get any mileage out of eruption? Seems like it could come in handy for holding a choke point or blocking line of sight. Could even hit one of you cheap KWs or something to put it where you want. Something for the runebearer to do at least. POW 14 really can't be ignored by the vast majority of infantry.
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Feb 6, 2018 17:52:08 GMT
Post-nerf Madrak just seems so horribly designed now. I'd love to see him go through the CID process. Pretty sure PP's vision for him isn't a caster who sits in the middle of his army all game hot swapping one spell, and maybe committing late game. Doesn't seem the right play style for an up-front unkillable murder machine.
Random thought, would losing the friendly faction clause on Blood Fury be a big help? He could play in PoD to take advantage of warpath and his field marshal, While Still having a decent spot for Blood Fury in merc/minion units. Probably will never happen.
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Post by robobengt on Feb 7, 2018 13:36:32 GMT
I miss his old Mk2 surfing ability and his old feat. Those where the days.
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