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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 23, 2018 18:30:29 GMT
Sure you do.
Overrun triggers if you destroy a model in your activation, so you'll get to make the move even if you killed them at range.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 23, 2018 18:59:33 GMT
No, he's right. Overrun only triggers if you kill a model in your Combat Action. Assault shots specifically happen before the start of your combat action (pg 52 of Prime)
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Post by sand20go on Jan 26, 2018 6:00:26 GMT
I will have to get through Welsh's thread as well but my first (I know, shudder the thought) run with him and I am not at all convinced Huge based models are ideal. (I brought conquest, I don't own a Viktor yet). Sure, it CAN trigger overrun but it also is a big point sink when it can't itself benefit. Huge sized models are a pain to maneuver, especially with a LOS blocking terrain in the center of the board. So you are a bit stuck (especially if you go second) between throwing 39 points away or hanging back.
Lost to Narresh (sp) in the theme where he can take minion beasts. In hindsite I should have just gone for the alpha rather than trying to get "cute" by looking for the overrun....though the Arhidon's threaten 13 (out threatening by non superiority Juggers on feat unless I overrun). Maybe just an awful matchup - with brigards digging in not great overrun targets to begin with.
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Post by grimworks on Jan 27, 2018 8:08:46 GMT
I can't speak about the other builds being discussed but I can perhaps give some insight into the reasons I use viktor in my list.
1) Ranged overrun trigger + Melee overrun trigger It's not something I rely on, but having a long ranged overrun trigger in the list is quite potent for positioning/scenario/pressure. Within khador this boils down to the choice of using one of the following models in the battlegroup: destroyer, behemoth, conquest and viktor. The destroyer tends to be too focus inefficient and unreliable with a single shot which leaves us with the other three models to consider. In addition, the remaining three models also tend to be excellent melee overrun triggers due to high P+S or AP which usually allows them to reliably trigger overruns off enemy heavies when required.
2) Effective piece trading: Behemoth and conquest seem to be the community's jacks of preference for strakhov as both provide reliable ranged overrun triggers and punch hard with the behemoth having the added benefit of being a receiver of overrun and hence being able to threat the full threat range under strakhov. However I would like to propose that the behemoth is a red herring in terms of building a list for strakhov for the following reasons:
Possible uses of behemoth a) Assassination jack: The behemoth is really good for assassinations, but against warcasters (focus) it tends to be overkill when a juggernaut would suffice while against war casters (fury) it tends to be as effective as a juggernaut if there are enough transfer targets. A grolar tends to be better for this purpose than a behemoth. b) Alpha purpose: Behemoth offensively is again good for this, but then the problem of it's grid comes in, at 2 boxes more durable than a standard heavy. So while it will likely kill what it charged on an alpha, your opponent should still have the resources following your alpha to remove behemoth relatively easily which is not desirable because of the high point cost. For some casters this might be okay but not for strakhov because he doesn't buff much beyond movement, so I am of the opinion that he needs cost-efficient models to be able to trade effectively and behemoth usually does not do enough to trade his points back.
Due to their relative durability, the colossals are more efficient piece traders than behemoth and in addition also covers a larger melee footprint (allowing you to more easily alpha 2 desirable targets) to present a more dangerous threat range presence.
3) Interaction with spell-list (sentry), threat range play and other list/meta issues So by this point, we've established a need for a long-range overrun trigger, a reliable melee trigger (off heavies) and an effective piece trader in the larger play to be beneficial/desired of a model within strakhov's battlegroup. This leaves us with both colossals: the conquest and the viktor.
At triggering ranged overruns, the conquest is more effective: it has more high pow AoEs, it shoots more accurately on the main cannon and is cheaper by a point while also allowing for blast template board control against some infantry lists. So why then should we consider the viktor? The answer is a bit harder to grasp but it begins with Strakhov's spell list (sentry).
Sentry allows for an unboostable shot during the maintenance phase: on the conquest, it translates to a free firing of a good weapon crew piece, on the viktor however, it is significantly more potent. The viktor's siege mortar is rarely expected to directly hit a target and while you can't boost the blast damage, the use of the three different ammo types allows you to control the situation: against skorne/menoth, I would try to find an angle to target paingivers/choir with incendiary, against khador/low pathfinder armies, dump rough terrain, on assassination runs, I would attempt to flare the caster. As this happens before allocation, you have the opportunity to see whether it lands (~50%) chance and finalise your plan/allocation accordingly.
Therefore in my mode of play, the victor functions initially as a playmaker piece: it removes support models that my opponent relies on to outclass cheap effective khador heavies, it thins out (but doesn't annihilate) infantry pieces because I want to keep some infantry models on the table for future overrun targets, it encourages more aggressive infantry play compared to conquest because of the range of the gun and lack of short range clearance (like HE nipples on conquest) and that also plays into my game of wanting to have some easy overrun triggers (via melee). At times it also allows for rough terrain patches to attempt to control threat ranges on the opponent's second line when I go in for an alpha and many times it is there for a 50-75% chance at flaring the opponent caster (1-2 shots) and while -2 def might not sound like much, it translates to a significant probability swing on def15/16 targets even with a jack under superiority, particularly on warlock (fury) targets. The last I recalled when I ran the numbers was I think a 20-40% absolute increase in the likelihood of killing a 15/16 2 fury camping caster under the flare effect.
Also, there tends to be a prevalence of blast immune infantry in the meta so I do enjoy the incendiary rounds on the viktor. With SR2017, the single terrain in the middle basically for me dictates that the colossal now needs to be on a flank to fully leverage threat ranges and firing arcs.
Archidons however, are generally a pain.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 3, 2018 5:54:33 GMT
Battle report. PLayed a low model count Strakov list into Kraye tonight (piloted by a member of the ATC winning team so a pretty good player ;-) Problem for our main man was the challenge of getting alpha'ed by the ironclads and stormclads. And of course losing the roll. Going second into Kraye SUCKS.
I had a devestator (marshalled), 2 forgeseers, 2 Juggers, Grolar and Behemoth. Brought Yuri and then tried out Kell, Marksman, and Widows (maybe too much snipers - could have 17 more points of jacks.
Gave up the two juggers to the alpha. That hurt. Behemoth was able to eat 2 jacks and Grolar another. But that left a Ironclad which ate Behemoth after Falk put a shot into him and Harlan magic weaponed the jack (like I said, my opponent is good to have that in play and all set up). After that it was GG and a scenario loss.
Now that all said I MIGHT have had an assassination run at him IF I had remembered the advice above and had Behemoth in the 6 inch bubble. Sadly he was out and thus order of activation killed my chance to put Kraye into the dirt since he was within 20 of the Grolar.
Of course NOW I figure it out....(and why Strakov is actually so much fun....)
Powerup. Strakov needs all 6 Strakov activates Casts Overrun on himself, Superiority on the Grolar. Feats Charges Pony. Hopes to kill pony Trigger overun and Move Behemoth to within 6 of Strakov. THEN cast overrun on Behemoth. Sprint Beehmoth goes. Charges the iron clad blocking Grolar. Behemoth bopes to kill Ironclad Grolar Overruns Grolar Charges Kraye. Needs a 6 to hit him with Hammer. Dice +2. Sadly no knockdown but with a fist and a second hammer and then maybe a lucky shot.....
Now there may have been some freestrikes for the poor grolar to survive. We didn't see fully how close he had to come to things.
So the moral is.....don't forget that if you haven't set up things PERFECTLY in the 6 inch bubble you can use the second overrun to get a key jack into range to be able to cast it.
Damm....well not bad for my second game with him.....
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Post by sand20go on Feb 4, 2018 2:16:47 GMT
Got my first win. First game against Caine3 I screwed up the threat and thought I would be safe in a trench. HAH!
We rewracked and then I got to live the dream.
2 Focus allocated to Jugger #2 Jugger 1 runs out of the way ForgeSeers provide 2 focus to the Grolar to get him fully loaded. Strak activates and puts over run on Jugger #2 and Behemoth Strak then walks up and tries to shoot Cygnar light jack. Wiffs but oh well. Feats Widows put some damage on it so I don't get screwed. Jugger 2 charges and eats the light jack. I think I had a focus to spare Grolar Overruns. Behemoth activates, couldn't get to light number 2 but can shoot at mechanic gobbers. Wiffs both but gets the drift. Overrun triggers on Strak who moves 6 to get Caine 3 in the bubble so the Grolar can charge for free. Grolar goes and charges Caine. Boosts to hit. Pounds him to ground. Hits with Fist. GG.
The main change I am going to make is to drop something to get mechanics in. With the center of the board LOS blocking terrain you really need to be able to keep your assassination vectors open and available. With it being a small model count army you can't afford to lose systems on your jacks that will need to go eat. Not sure how I will get that in but I think imperative.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 20, 2018 0:30:27 GMT
Two more games.
List is still a "work in progress" (At least today it felt a bit underpowered with too many snipers)
Strakov Grolar 2 Juggers Behemoth Devestator (today all under Strak rather than one marshalled)
Forgeseer x 2 (free) Yuri (free) Marksman Kell Widowmaker Scouts eliminators
Played it into Juris piloting Haley 2 and a Hurricane.
Got him on the first game when he rolled poorly and left the Grolar up and running. Pinged out a bit of damage with some sniper shots and then hit the iron clad with the eliminators. Then Strakov1 came in, feated, and then finished off the Iron clad triggering Overrun which helped the grolar get to where he needed to be. Charged Haley2. Boosted the Hammer, down she went.
Second game not so good. This time the Hurricane under Arcane shield proved too much to chew through and ultimately lost on points. Not a "bad" game just hard.
But the core/key thing is that he is simply so much fun. Lots of ways to think through the battlefield to get the overrun triggered to pound face. Bit frustrating to play our "alpha" caster into a better alpha but Haley2 remains a great caster even after the nerf. And hey, got ONE W ;-)
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Post by tapecrawler on Feb 20, 2018 1:45:37 GMT
Congrats on the win! So how do you think your list would do against someone else instead of your nemesis running Haley2? Juris better be careful otherwise he and Haley2 are going to have illegitimate kids with all the time they spend together. No way they’re just friends after all these years . . . 😂
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Post by sand20go on Feb 20, 2018 2:27:11 GMT
Congrats on the win! So how do you think your list would do against someone else instead of your nemesis running Haley2? Juris better be careful otherwise he and Haley2 are going to have illegitimate kids with all the time they spend together. No way they’re just friends after all these years . . . 😂 I think he is amazing. Khador GENERALLY doesn't have that great of assassination casters. But strakhov comes at your from a ridiculous number of directions. Into a LOT of lists you are going to have a good number of targets to trigger overrun. When you consider that soon we will have 17 point Spriggans - the original holy spear of death - it really gets ridiculous because now we are looking at great bulldoze options (and ARM 21 to shrug off free strikes). Plus, and this is a big consideration for me, he is really fun to play. You get to look all over the map at for the vectors and the overrun tricks. It makes for a VERY interesting game. But the list is still a work in progress. I wonder about adding in someone like Elish to help with, for example, removing upkeeps (yeah) and puppet stringing a key overrun trigger. Plus I own the model.......
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Post by grimworks on Feb 20, 2018 10:16:50 GMT
Will probably get more active here after CID ends but just a note that sadly spriggan is arm19 to free strikes because 2 arm is on the shield. Otherwise glad that you’re having fun with strakhov, I really feel like there’s a high skill threshold to him so it was always fun just to appreciate and see the different movement options at each stage
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Post by sand20go on Feb 20, 2018 16:19:22 GMT
Will probably get more active here after CID ends but just a note that sadly spriggan is arm19 to free strikes because 2 arm is on the shield. Otherwise glad that you’re having fun with strakhov, I really feel like there’s a high skill threshold to him so it was always fun just to appreciate and see the different movement options at each stage He makes you a better player since a key aspect of him (as per your original post) is thinking a turn ahead and how you want to put things in good positions to leverage everything that he can do. Trying to be good with money or else I would LOVE Victor with him. The idea of putting Sentry shots on the pie plate of Fire (or rough terrain) seems really really REALLY good.
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Post by welshhoppo on Feb 20, 2018 17:50:42 GMT
Conquest is so much better.
Because if you can't trigger over run off 5 shots, you are in the wrong game.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 20, 2018 17:52:31 GMT
Conquest is so much better. Because if you can't trigger over run off 5 shots, you are in the wrong game. Not convinced. While better on Overrun the Viktor seems more ideal for the Sentry shot.
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Post by welshhoppo on Feb 20, 2018 17:55:54 GMT
Conquest is so much better. Because if you can't trigger over run off 5 shots, you are in the wrong game. Not convinced. While better on Overrun the Viktor seems more ideal for the Sentry shot. Sentry is probably handier on the Viktor. But I'm not convinced that he's worth it outside of that. Besides, sentry is really good on a marksman too. Probably better.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 20, 2018 17:57:58 GMT
Not convinced. While better on Overrun the Viktor seems more ideal for the Sentry shot. Sentry is probably handier on the Viktor. But I'm not convinced that he's worth it outside of that. Besides, sentry is really good on a marksman too. Probably better. Finding that the Markman too easy to kill but I may have him too far forward and should be using him as a backliner to put additional damage on a jack that I will then kill for overtake. More testing required ;-)
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