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Post by macdaddy on Jan 6, 2018 16:02:44 GMT
It is not a necessity by any means. But think about this,
Borka 2 And his entire BG gain +1 Mat And Rat. Mat 7 Dire trolls is pretty darn good.
It’s an extra accuracy fix for the entire army and a Damage buff for things like fire eaters and raiders thanks to oil.
You can have your fire eaters get boosted Damage rolls without lightning them up as well and Rat 7 sprays won’t neccesarily need the boosted attack rolls.
I think it’s an amazing piece, it’s only not an auto include because it’s 18 points and that’s a steep price.
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Post by trollsareblue on Jan 6, 2018 16:59:30 GMT
Because that is what many trolls players want! Not you? No worries. We have already discussed that it is not an OP model. Nobody will feel pressured that they need this to play balanced games. I should likely stay off forums for a week or so. I’m getting less and less able to “hold my tongue.” I'm gonna go ahead and say more Troll players would like a less expensive option.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 6, 2018 18:08:23 GMT
There might be *a little* up-charging going on, but I think the main cost driver of the Hooch Hauler is going to be the design necessitating a lot of molds. In other words, the tooling cost for that has got to be a flaming bbb---itch!
Take a look at all of the separate pieces that goes into making that thing! Nevermind the design time that went into that thing, all of the time that will be required to make all of the master molds and the productions molds will have to be brutal. That is going to be a nightmare for their production department.
I don't think that they are gouging us, but I do think that their creativity got away from their business sense, and I fear that this will turn into yet another marketing problem for PP. At the very least I think we will definitely need to make sure that in future CID any of the proposed battle engines don't become necessary, or we might end up with a great theme army that can't be played due to cost.
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 6, 2018 23:13:09 GMT
Pp prices their stuff based on production cost? Why not, idk, but why make expensive gaming models to begin with? If you have a look at comparably sized high-detail kits outside of wargaming, the price difference is always a bit staggering (it was a perennial criticism levelled at Forgeworld).
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 7, 2018 3:49:21 GMT
I don't think that they are gouging us, but I do think that their creativity got away from their business sense, and I fear that this will turn into yet another marketing problem for PP. Not necessarily. BAHI models are supposed to be done under lean manufacturing. Meaning they will produce the initial pre-order run, some extras for conventions and promotions, and very small number to have On Hand. PP can then shelf the mold and just produce new HHH as orders trickle in. PP can protect themselves by keeping inventory low with BAHI models. As opposed to typical huge base models that have to be mass produced in China and go through the whole distribution channels and actively promoted to move the units. BAHI business model is no different than the spare parts store, PP produces them as orders come in. PP can recoup their investment if they keep moving their higher margin units and loss leaders while making sure not to over produce the BAHI models. Now, the PR problem of making a boutique model and pricing at such is another thing. Especially since people wanna use it in game.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jan 7, 2018 11:49:29 GMT
I seriously don't think production costs play a major role in wargameing model pricing. It's demand, pure and simple. Hooked players are willing to pay that much, so why not ask them to pay that much. "Inflation" in this case is just probing the market. Enough people bought absurdly priced new character warjacks ? Let's see if we can milk them some more...
If you keep buying overpriced models don't be surprised prices keep rising. If PP noticed a sharp decline in sales I am sure prices would be modified too, to encourage purchases.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 7, 2018 12:24:41 GMT
I seriously don't think production costs play a major role in wargameing model pricing. It's demand, pure and simple. Hooked players are willing to pay that much, so why not ask them to pay that much. "Inflation" in this case is just probing the market. Enough people bought absurdly priced new character warjacks ? Let's see if we can milk them some more... If you keep buying overpriced models don't be surprised prices keep rising. If PP noticed a sharp decline in sales I am sure prices would be modified too, to encourage purchases. Nah, I think you're way off there. It's about the size of the market. Now looking at characters, they are regular sized models. Say Ruin compared to a Juggernaut. Now, to produce Ruin and the Juggernaut takes the same amount of effort, you need artists to draw up the sketches first. Then more artists to finish them off. Then you need a 3D artist to create a render. Then it needs to be vetted. Then you need to buy the same moulds, test the model the same amount of times, and then produce it. Now, Ruin and a Juggernaut have taken the same amount of work to get to this stage. But the majority of Khador players will only ever buy 1 Ruin. But they might buy 2+ Juggernauts and their chassis equivalent. So Ruin has to be more expensive in order to cover his costs. You're looking at paying a teams wages for at least several weeks or months, all the equipment you need to actually make it, And then all the production costs. It's no wonder characters are more expensive than regular models.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 7, 2018 13:51:00 GMT
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's both.
COGS and fixed costs plays into any manufactured good. Suggesting otherwise is just a lack of business experience.
That said, i mentioned something about about sale frequency forecasting, i.e., there's a see saw between production cost, fixed costs, desired margin, accessible market (total amount of potentially reachable customers for product) and realistic potential market (i.e. if the total accessible market is the projected number of troll players plus or minus the net or negative troll players they think they will gain or lose, then of those the realistic market is a portion of those players as you won't hit 100% of your total accessible market. These are internal metrics and mot to be confused with market shares which are external).
Unless they are the luckiest people on the planet, both play into their business plan model for costing.
While Occams razor doesn't always work it's easier to believe a successful manufacturing company actively incorporates generally accepted business and manufacturing processes for finished goods than they have been winging it for a decade and a half.
Now there is some boutique nature to the product, and that likely factors into the margin they want as well as the realistic market potential of the total accessible market. They may also have a desired profitability percent which such a complex 54 piece model will automatically escalate, and they may be using Bahi as a cost controller, margin increaser in addition to possibly probing what consumers will pay.
At the risk of a cliche, this is all pretty standard manufacturing marketing 101. I do get that many folks might not work in these fields, but none of this is complicated pricing and costing theory.
NOte there are other facts too, but i guarantee that at a minimum COGS, Fixed Costs, and frequency of sale forecasting are playing into this models cost. Folded into those concepts are things like labor, material cost, mold cost, etc. What is not folded into those three things are stuff like market probing for what consumers will bear (margins are, and any impact on costs / profits that making the model through BAHI is as well).
Note i found out yesterday that the model is 54 pieces ; while that doesn't equate automatically to 54 molds (one mold could produce several pieces FWIW), that is a TON of pieces in resin and metal. I think the dracodile has single digits of pieces, so yeah, there's definitely some cost uptick there in COGS and fixed costs. It doesn't explain if the jump from something with the materials and complexity from the dracodile to the HH is a price probe, and neither does it confirm it, it just does lend a greater level of credence to the fact that the model is significantly more complex (note more complex also still doesn't necessarily answer if it requires more materials or not to produce the models, though its a safe bet it requires more molds - though possibly not as many as the 9 pieces vs. 54 might initially suggest).
One thing I would be willing to bet my collection of minis on: all this information is codified in one or more spreadsheets somewhere, and they are very, very aware of all of it and are making business decisions based on this data. This is how data-driven manufacturing companies work these days.
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Post by ankiseth on Jan 7, 2018 16:48:54 GMT
Yeah Drac is seven pieces: torso, tail, four limbs, two pieces for the head.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 7, 2018 17:35:46 GMT
Yeah Drac is seven pieces: torso, tail, four limbs, two pieces for the head. Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression it was 9 from a friend.
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Post by albertairish on Jan 7, 2018 19:45:16 GMT
I don't think that they are gouging us, but I do think that their creativity got away from their business sense, and I fear that this will turn into yet another marketing problem for PP. Not necessarily. BAHI models are supposed to be done under lean manufacturing. Meaning they will produce the initial pre-order run, some extras for conventions and promotions, and very small number to have On Hand. PP can then shelf the mold and just produce new HHH as orders trickle in. PP can protect themselves by keeping inventory low with BAHI models. As opposed to typical huge base models that have to be mass produced in China and go through the whole distribution channels and actively promoted to move the units. BAHI business model is no different than the spare parts store, PP produces them as orders come in. PP can recoup their investment if they keep moving their higher margin units and loss leaders while making sure not to over produce the BAHI models. Now, the PR problem of making a boutique model and pricing at such is another thing. Especially since people wanna use it in game. How are orders going to "come in" if their website says they're out of stock and won't let you order one?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 7, 2018 19:54:54 GMT
They restock fairly regularly, even with big pieces. Typically if something is out of stock it comes back in within 5-14 days.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 7, 2018 21:12:47 GMT
I don't think that they are gouging us, but I do think that their creativity got away from their business sense, and I fear that this will turn into yet another marketing problem for PP. Not necessarily. BAHI models are supposed to be done under lean manufacturing. Meaning they will produce the initial pre-order run, some extras for conventions and promotions, and very small number to have On Hand. PP can then shelf the mold and just produce new HHH as orders trickle in. That is not what Lean Manufacturing means. Lean Manufacturing is more about reducing waste and other activities that go towards a lower cost manufacturing process. If you have any questions in the linked Wikipedia article fell free to ask, I have a Lean Gold Practitioner certification as well as a Six Sigma Black Belt certification. The project I worked on for my Black Belt was done at Iron Wind Metals (Battletech, old D&D, early Malifaux metal miniatures, and a lot of other contract miniature production), where after I did a 5S and reorganization of their masters storage area I saved them $33K+ in lost labor. The above advantage that you mention above is a small portion of Lean Manufacturing in that it reduces over-production that would go to filling a supply chain that no longer needs to be filled. If PP is smart, they will not make some extras for conventions and promotions, only a small amount to fill late orders for a short period of time. Normally, I would agree with you, but PP is in a low-volume business, a boutique hobby. Yes, we are spread all over the world and Warmachine is a popular game - but the sales volumes that PP probably sees is a sliver of what more mainstream manufacturing does. Because of the low volume business that PP does, more than likely *all* of their in-house production becomes like this after the production for the initial release for each SKU. BAHI's real advantage comes into play in that by taking all of the middle men out of the cost equation there's enough changes to that equation to create more room to play. While the Hooch Hauler is damn expensive at $165, if it were to have been sold in LGS the retail price would probably be closer to $200 or have a lot less detail parts. PP needs to make sure they recoup their initial design and tooling costs with their initial production run. That's the reason why they are giving away free goodies if you pre-order, to drive up sales to make sure a BAHI product recoups its initial costs and hopefully turns some profit. Any sales after that will cover mold carrying costs, replacement production molds, labor, packing materials, and add to the revenue stream. If PP has any loss leaders, they would be the Mk3 Battle boxes and the CoI box set. There's a reason why those, and the discounted army box sets, are full of plastic miniatures: because those happen to also be the high margin units. Anything that is made out of plastic is going to have a very low part cost. The real trick is to recoup the tooling costs. The reason why PP has Chinese companies doing their plastic parts is because they have lower tooling and production costs. Considering the production time, delivery time, and lower costs PP probably has their supplier make very large batches and ship them over. Don't believe me? Then why was PP, for their recent Black Friday Christmas sale, blowing out Mk2 battle boxes on their online store over a year after Mk3 had been on the market? I wouldn't be surprised if PP still made money, or because of carrying costs broke even on that sale. People have been talking about probing pricing on this model. If PP is doing any probing with this product, I don't think that they are trying to find out how much money they can squeeze out of a customer, I think they are trying to find out how big / crazy / intricate of a model that the market will bear. The Dracodile was a perfect proof of concept test: can we get people to buy huge based models from us and not their LGS? The Hooch Hauler might be a test of how big can they go. If it sells well, expect other expensive offerings at a later time. If it sells ok, they may scale back on the detail and part count of following releases. If it sells poorly, they will scale back on the detail and part count of following releases.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 7, 2018 21:40:28 GMT
[SNIP] Note i found out yesterday that the model is 54 pieces ; while that doesn't equate automatically to 54 molds (one mold could produce several pieces FWIW), that is a TON of pieces in resin and metal. I think the dracodile has single digits of pieces, so yeah, there's definitely some cost uptick there in COGS and fixed costs. It doesn't explain if the jump from something with the materials and complexity from the dracodile to the HH is a price probe, and neither does it confirm it, it just does lend a greater level of credence to the fact that the model is significantly more complex (note more complex also still doesn't necessarily answer if it requires more materials or not to produce the models, though its a safe bet it requires more molds - though possibly not as many as the 9 pieces vs. 54 might initially suggest). 54 pieces?!?!? That. Is. Insane!No wonder that thing costs $165! The piece count is going to be a HUGE price driver for the Hooch Hauler! Making all of the master molds, making all of the production molds, casting up all of those parts (material, labor, machine time, etc.), staging all of those parts in WIP, packing all of those parts in their packaging (material, labor, space, etc.) are all going to drive up prices. Now, there are going to be some pieces that are duplicated, like the wheels, maybe the central barrel if it has been portioned, and maybe any structural parts. Yes, you can combine some pieces together into the same mold, like the Whelps crawling around and other smaller bits. But after that there are a lot of detail aspects of casting pieces that will make them question whether they want to combine parts into the same mold or not: size, resin -vs- pewter, mold wear, etc. I'm not going to defend PP on their pricing, because I think the idea of asking someone to pay $165 for a game piece is outrageous, but I don't think that they are price probing just to see how much they can squeeze out of their customers - the sales volume is way too low to make that worthwhile. I think they are trying to find out how big and crazy of offerings that they can make for BAHI.
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Post by albertairish on Jan 7, 2018 21:52:47 GMT
They restock fairly regularly, even with big pieces. Typically if something is out of stock it comes back in within 5-14 days. We have no idea how regularly they'll restock Black Anchor pieces, and they have no way of knowing how many people want one. The Dracodile has been "Sold Out" for over a month now.
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