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Post by tesoe on Jan 5, 2018 18:48:56 GMT
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 5, 2018 18:51:32 GMT
PP has always priced their minis on material and design costs, this thing is huge and has a ton of detail. I'm not at all surprised that it's this expensive, the molds for this thing must be insane. I do think it may have been in their best interest to simplify it for the sake of keeping that cost down but I don't think they're cackling in Scrooge McDuck-like glee here. I don't 100% disagree with this, which is why i want to know if the cask is solid or mostly hollow. If its solid (i.e. - there are say two halves and either very little or no cavity between them when merged), then 165 makes total sense (that's a lot of resin and a bit of silly design, but at least we know its materials). I might be showing my age here, but a long, long time ago as a kid i got a forgeworld Demonic cannon thing that was sort of mounted on a base that looked like a train car base - thing was legit, 100% solid block of resin, you could club someone to death with this thing. So if the cask is like that, okay, i can at least understand it if have a bit of pursed lip head shaking in terms of the production design and engineering. If its completely hollow..... yeah.... no, this would suggest a market probe to me. Question to troll players : how powerful / useful a piece is it overall ? Functionally useless, niche or cornercase, strong piece, or OP ?
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Post by elladan52 on Jan 5, 2018 19:01:12 GMT
PP has always priced their minis on material and design costs, this thing is huge and has a ton of detail. I'm not at all surprised that it's this expensive, the molds for this thing must be insane. I do think it may have been in their best interest to simplify it for the sake of keeping that cost down but I don't think they're cackling in Scrooge McDuck-like glee here. I don't 100% disagree with this, which is why i want to know if the cask is solid or mostly hollow. If its solid (i.e. - there are say two halves and either very little or no cavity between them when merged), then 165 makes total sense (that's a lot of resin and a bit of silly design, but at least we know its materials). I might be showing my age here, but a long, long time ago as a kid i got a forgeworld Demonic cannon thing that was sort of mounted on a base that looked like a train car base - thing was legit, 100% solid block of resin, you could club someone to death with this thing. So if the cask is like that, okay, i can at least understand it if have a bit of pursed lip head shaking in terms of the production design and engineering. If its completely hollow..... yeah.... no, this would suggest a market probe to me. Question to troll players : how powerful / useful a piece is it overall ? Functionally useless, niche or cornercase, strong piece, or OP ? If it has a multitude of parts that will also contribute to the cost since it will require more molds.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 5, 2018 19:16:26 GMT
That is absolutely true: the picture shows a variety of parts, but i can't quite tell on the cask.
My guess is that the cask is 2-6 pieces. The level of hollowness those pieces comprise is going to have a direct effect on how much material is used. There's a lot that goes into this, but i work with production material cost engineering every day of my professional life. There's a balance on the # of molds vs. how much material going on for sure, but the resin they get is a 3rd party material which means its harder to control that cost which means larger mark ups. If there's more resin (i.e. - cask is not hollow!), then that would be a good explanation as to why the price is as high as it is.
This would account for a higher price point per piece on a fixed cost basis and cost of goods sold basis than a greater number of molds. Very roughly this is because the molds price can be ameliorated over the cost of many models (one mold can make lots of models). A shit ton of resin in each of these models must be ameliorated within each and every individual model (i.e. if the cask is solid you need X amount of resin to fill that mold and get a completed model - this means more material markup than if its not hollow, and that's just scratching the surface - warehousing that material, shipping it due to weight, etc etc etc etc).
This is literally just scratching the surface though, there's a ton of stuff that goes into the business side of this .
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jan 5, 2018 19:54:00 GMT
Wow, seeing it now next to the dracodile I actually think it's too big. It's going to completely dwarf most other huge bases and the proportions look strange... IMO it should have been smaller, which would also have helped the cost a bit I imagine. Haight that's some interesting insight. It's funny how many little things about production you pick when playing minis games that start to convince you you know what you're talking about, it's always good to hear something from an experienced side of things to remind you of how little you know lol
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 5, 2018 21:49:16 GMT
I mean i'm approximating, to be clear i work with finished metallurgical goods. I am the first to admit that i don't 100% know the specifics of PP's business nor their COGS / Fixed Costs / Material supply contracts, etc. But at a very basic level, i have to imagine its really not all that much different than dealing with production of metals (some of which include molds / dies, things of that nature). I know for a fact that PP doesn't manufacture the constituent chemical parts that constitute its resin, though they may actually cast the resin themselves or sub it out, that part i don't know. So there's some level of third party procurement here and possibly even labor, though to exactly what level I am not sure. I just know that i deal with something that is more or less similar, so applying what i do for a living, i can see at least a couple ways this could be justified by material costs. But again, i mean, i'm ballparking. I would still bet if the cask is hollow this is a market probe (we do that too).
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Jan 6, 2018 1:38:15 GMT
Question to troll players : how powerful / useful a piece is it overall ? Functionally useless, niche or cornercase, strong piece, or OP ? Not 165$ US strong. Local player bought one, and is expecting to pay close to 250$ CAN for it.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jan 6, 2018 5:19:53 GMT
Powerful? Considerations: It cannot boost it's ranged attacks and is RAT 5. Direct hit SINGLE Cask Bomb damage will be POW 16 auto-boosted if it can hit with that paltry RAT 5. The 4" blast damage will be a boosted POW 8 on models under the template. 2x 10" sprays at POW 12 that again have to hit at RAT 5, if hit = boosted damage.
Does have Cav-rule boosted charge attack rolls at 10.5" range that will KD. Vet Leader ALL (other) Northkin +1 to attack rolls at 10" CMD is excellent.
How many RAT 5 un-boostable ranged attack platforms do you include in your army at 18pts? In my opinion, it's more of a 'fun' battle engine than a 'oh no, not that thing again' competitive piece.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 6, 2018 9:58:06 GMT
Powerful? Considerations: It cannot boost it's ranged attacks and is RAT 5. Direct hit SINGLE Cask Bomb damage will be POW 16 auto-boosted if it can hit with that paltry RAT 5. The 4" blast damage will be a boosted POW 8 on models under the template. 2x 10" sprays at POW 12 that again have to hit at RAT 5, if hit = boosted damage. Does have Cav-rule boosted charge attack rolls at 10.5" range that will KD. Vet Leader ALL (other) Northkin +1 to attack rolls at 10" CMD is excellent. How many RAT 5 un-boostable ranged attack platforms do you include in your army at 18pts? In my opinion, it's more of a 'fun' battle engine than a 'oh no, not that thing again' competitive piece. Vet Leader and stumbling drunk are what make it good, not it's offensive output
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 6, 2018 10:18:29 GMT
Powerful? Considerations: It cannot boost it's ranged attacks and is RAT 5. Direct hit SINGLE Cask Bomb damage will be POW 16 auto-boosted if it can hit with that paltry RAT 5. The 4" blast damage will be a boosted POW 8 on models under the template. 2x 10" sprays at POW 12 that again have to hit at RAT 5, if hit = boosted damage. Does have Cav-rule boosted charge attack rolls at 10.5" range that will KD. Vet Leader ALL (other) Northkin +1 to attack rolls at 10" CMD is excellent. How many RAT 5 un-boostable ranged attack platforms do you include in your army at 18pts? In my opinion, it's more of a 'fun' battle engine than a 'oh no, not that thing again' competitive piece. Vet Leader and stumbling drunk are what make it good, not it's offensive output Agreed. It's not something you want to see at the centre of a Borka2 Beast Brick. Also, iirc the AOE is Oil, which does unpleasant things in combination with say, Raiders or Fire Eaters. I don't have a good read on if it's going to be amazing competitively (and tbh, I'm not a troll player) but my gut reaction is that it's a model with serious potential for competitive play.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 6, 2018 11:54:46 GMT
Powerful? Considerations: It cannot boost it's ranged attacks and is RAT 5. Direct hit SINGLE Cask Bomb damage will be POW 16 auto-boosted if it can hit with that paltry RAT 5. The 4" blast damage will be a boosted POW 8 on models under the template. 2x 10" sprays at POW 12 that again have to hit at RAT 5, if hit = boosted damage. Does have Cav-rule boosted charge attack rolls at 10.5" range that will KD. Vet Leader ALL (other) Northkin +1 to attack rolls at 10" CMD is excellent. How many RAT 5 un-boostable ranged attack platforms do you include in your army at 18pts? In my opinion, it's more of a 'fun' battle engine than a 'oh no, not that thing again' competitive piece. Vet Leader and stumbling drunk are what make it good, not it's offensive output Maybe it grants stumbling drunk because you'd be a stumbling drunk if your wife finds out how much you spend on a large piece of plastic.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Jan 6, 2018 13:26:19 GMT
Pp prices their stuff based on production cost? Why not, idk, but why make expensive gaming models to begin with?
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jan 6, 2018 13:37:14 GMT
Because that is what many trolls players want!
Not you? No worries. We have already discussed that it is not an OP model. Nobody will feel pressured that they need this to play balanced games.
I should likely stay off forums for a week or so. I’m getting less and less able to “hold my tongue.”
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 6, 2018 14:08:26 GMT
Pp prices their stuff based on production cost? Why not, idk, but why make expensive gaming models to begin with? I don't follow... are you suggesting that manufacturers don't take COGS and fixed costs and sale frequency forecast into consideration when setting pricing? I mean it's 3 of 5 most important things in pricing and costing... Maybe I didn't understand your post or got the context wrong.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 6, 2018 14:35:03 GMT
Because that is what many trolls players want! Not you? No worries. We have already discussed that it is not an OP model. Nobody will feel pressured that they need this to play balanced games. I should likely stay off forums for a week or so. I’m getting less and less able to “hold my tongue.” Do you feel it is needed to play Storm of the North? A lot of that themes synergy seems to revolve around the Hooch Hauler; vet leader, high proof, stumbling drunk
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