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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 5, 2018 19:25:18 GMT
Since JVM has been brought up in this thread, I'll repeat something he told me: you need to use all the kit on the model. ie, you need to use Slipstream AND Flare on the Seraph to get 14 points of value, or in the specific case I was talking to him about, free charges AND blight storm/wind ravager/frostbite on the sorceresss. I mean shouldn't this be obvious? We're already paying a premium for our models compared to other factions, we wouldn't be able to compete if we didn't squeeze out every bit of value out of them. This transitions into the problem that many of our models suffer from rules bloat. For example, all our beasts have eyeless sight, which I'm going to assume is factored into their pricing. However, Eyeless is of marginal use for melee beasts. This jack of "all trades" master of none is very evident in the Nephilim. Soldier: Precision Strike+Low-ish PS favors focusing on a single heavy target while Overtake animus favors killing infantry Protector: Shield Guard incentivizes staying at range, but Guard rewards playing your caster forward. Bolt Thrower: Gun and Snipe benefit shooting but MAT/RAT 6/5 and Quickwork suggest melee. Many of our models are a jumble of semi-useful rules that come together to create some garbage units on the field, and that's ignoring the exorbitant prices we pay for them. It should be noted that I'm not arguing against versatility, it was mentioned in another thread that one of Legion's strengths that it can apply pressure from range and melee. Edit: When it is evident that some factions are already being balanced to a different metric, the death of the game is already happening for those not part of that metric. We either nerf Cryx/Cygnar/etc. or we buff everybody else. Either way, people will be upset. Personally, I think PP should follow the path of least resistence. If it's easier to rebalance a single faction, whether through nerfs or buffs, as opposed to an entire roster they should pursue that path.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 19:33:14 GMT
You have to balance against the maximum potential of the beast though, otherwise high level play will skew.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 5, 2018 19:55:40 GMT
Since JVM has been brought up in this thread, I'll repeat something he told me: you need to use all the kit on the model. ie, you need to use Slipstream AND Flare on the Seraph to get 14 points of value, or in the specific case I was talking to him about, free charges AND blight storm/wind ravager/frostbite on the sorceresss. I mean shouldn't this be obvious? We're already paying a premium for our models compared to other factions, we wouldn't be able to compete if we didn't squeeze out every bit of value out of them. This transitions into the problem that many of our models suffer from rules bloat. For example, all our beasts have eyeless sight, which I'm going to assume is factored into their pricing. However, Eyeless is of marginal use for melee beasts. This jack of "all trades" master of none is very evident in the Nephilim. Soldier: Precision Strike+Low-ish PS favors focusing on a single heavy target while Overtake animus favors killing infantry Protector: Shield Guard incentivizes staying at range, but Guard rewards playing your caster forward. Bolt Thrower: Gun and Snipe benefit shooting but MAT/RAT 6/5 and Quickwork suggest melee. Many of our models are a jumble of semi-useful rules that come together to create some garbage units on the field, and that's ignoring the exorbitant prices we pay for them. It should be noted that I'm not arguing against versatility, it was mentioned in another thread that one of Legion's strengths that it can apply pressure from range and melee. Edit: When it is evident that some factions are already being balanced to a different metric, the death of the game is already happening for those not part of that metric. We either nerf Cryx/Cygnar/etc. or we buff everybody else. Either way, people will be upset. Personally, I think PP should follow the path of least resistence. If it's easier to rebalance a single faction, whether through nerfs or buffs, as opposed to an entire roster they should pursue that path. Quote for truth.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 5, 2018 20:37:07 GMT
You have to balance against the maximum potential of the beast though, otherwise high level play will skew. Shouldn't balancing be done for practical usage as opposed to the theoretical maximum? Because theoretically, a Bolt Thrower can threaten over 24" with the equivalent of a PS19 knockdown shot. This situation is also very unlikely since it requires: 1)Slipstream 2)Parasite 3)Lylyth1's feat 4)Kiss of Lyliss 5) Suitable target within 10" of the NBT that is also within 14" of your main target. And this is ignoring the prior setup and fury requirements to setup the action. In a "normal" situation, the NBT burns 1-2 Fury threaten 20" max with a humble PS14 gun. Said gun is used for 1 main purposes: Slow down approaching model with push/KD or apply damage from range. Now this was the unit in a vacuum. On the table our little Nephilim will probably have some help. you'll probably have a screen between it and the enemy so it might not have to cast Snipe. You probably took Forsaken/Shepherds, so the party can roam independent of your caster.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 20:44:24 GMT
Boosted PS14 is far from humble imo, but ya, you have to balance around that
If you made him RoF 2 he could one round a hunter off the table, especially with Lyl1, not to mention providing one of the strongest animi in the game. That might be too powerful.
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Jan 5, 2018 20:56:10 GMT
Boosted PS14 is far from humble imo, but ya, you have to balance around that If you made him RoF 2 he could one round a hunter off the table, especially with Lyl1, not to mention providing one of the strongest animi in the game. That might be too powerful. I assume a hunter with a parasite equivalent can probably kill the bolter too And not sure RNG: SELF snipe is the strongest animus in the game. Anything that can get it is pretty much balanced around that. Now the SPELL snipe, that is a different story ...
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 5, 2018 21:00:14 GMT
Boosted PS14 is far from humble imo, but ya, you have to balance around that If you made him RoF 2 he could one round a hunter off the table, especially with Lyl1, not to mention providing one of the strongest animi in the game. That might be too powerful. The heck are you talking about? In a more serious tone, you are referring to the Cygnar hunter right? The light warjack that is 14/15 with 24 boxes, compared to the Nephilim's 13/16/22 BTW. It can't even pull that off 50/50 with Lylyth1. I play Protectorate and Legion, our standard guns are P14 so that's my baseline. I'm not sure about other factions, but from a quick glance most dedicated guns are 13-15.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 5, 2018 22:39:21 GMT
Since JVM has been brought up in this thread, I'll repeat something he told me: you need to use all the kit on the model. ie, you need to use Slipstream AND Flare on the Seraph to get 14 points of value, or in the specific case I was talking to him about, free charges AND blight storm/wind ravager/frostbite on the sorceresss. Protector: Shield Guard incentivizes staying at range, but Guard rewards playing your caster forward. Wouldn't this be a good thing, though? I'd say its one of the few models that I feel fine paying extra for due to the extreme flexibility. The other models you listed are frustrating to be sure, however I'd say that the Protector only suffers from its animus. It fits everything any of our warlocks want, plus a little more (unless you're rhyas, then its 100% of what you want and nothing more).
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 23:16:09 GMT
Boosted PS14 is far from humble imo, but ya, you have to balance around that If you made him RoF 2 he could one round a hunter off the table, especially with Lyl1, not to mention providing one of the strongest animi in the game. That might be too powerful. The heck are you talking about? In a more serious tone, you are referring to the Cygnar hunter right? The light warjack that is 14/15 with 24 boxes, compared to the Nephilim's 13/16/22 BTW. It can't even pull that off 50/50 with Lylyth1. I play Protectorate and Legion, our standard guns are P14 so that's my baseline. I'm not sure about other factions, but from a quick glance most dedicated guns are 13-15. You are right, though it doesn't take much to send that math over the edge buff wise. It would give you one hell of a Lyl1 feat turn if they could shoot twice. I have a long and glorious past of shooting hunters off the table and I let my math get away from me. A gun on a beast is pretty different from a jack due to the fact that fury is additive and focus is not, by that I mean that you get to spend on the beasts what you use on the caster. This is amped up considering shepherds love for sitting behind the NBT. Also you get snipe on your caster with the NBT
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 5, 2018 23:39:36 GMT
You are right, though it doesn't take much to send that math over the edge buff wise. It would give you one hell of a Lyl1 feat turn if they could shoot twice. I have a long and glorious past of shooting hunters off the table and I let my math get away from me. A gun on a beast is pretty different from a jack due to the fact that fury is additive and focus is not, by that I mean that you get to spend on the beasts what you use on the caster. This is amped up considering shepherds love for sitting behind the NBT. Also you get snipe on your caster with the NBT Those are some great rolls and goes to show the longevity of the Mk2 battlebox casters like Lylyth1 and Kreoss1 compared to their contemporaries. The Fury v Focus debate has been discussed before so I'm gonna leave that aside, but the focus/fury needs of a ranged focus warnoun is capped by its rate of fire. In the case of our NBT and the swan Hunter, with only a single shot each, they should both cap out at 2 focus/fury invested each. However with power up, the Hunter effectively only needs 1 addition from its caster or support solo. Meanwhile, the NBT has to pony up another Fury to reach RNG12. In case you weren't around for it, NBT's used to be ranged 12" and were nerfed to 10" for the privilege of purchasing a 14" shot. Finally, Snipe/Farstrike is only useful on 5 variations of 2 casters. Once again, in Mk2 it was a RNG6 animus and could be put on our whole stable of shooters. On another note, the addition of the Harpy, Ret is going to be outputting, "one hell of turn" of firepower for a fraction of the cost. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Back to the larger topic, I have question for the OP: You clearly don't like the Seraph, which some people on this thread have described as a useful piece. How do you feel about the Naga Nightlurker? It too is a support piece taken mostly for its animus with a situational and randomly useful gun. I have heard people swear that it is the only thing allowing Legion to punch at its weight level after other factions get their buffs up, and yet others make do without it mostly fine.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jan 6, 2018 10:44:32 GMT
The heck are you talking about? In a more serious tone, you are referring to the Cygnar hunter right? The light warjack that is 14/15 with 24 boxes, compared to the Nephilim's 13/16/22 BTW. It can't even pull that off 50/50 with Lylyth1. I play Protectorate and Legion, our standard guns are P14 so that's my baseline. I'm not sure about other factions, but from a quick glance most dedicated guns are 13-15. You are right, though it doesn't take much to send that math over the edge buff wise. It would give you one hell of a Lyl1 feat turn if they could shoot twice. I have a long and glorious past of shooting hunters off the table and I let my math get away from me. A gun on a beast is pretty different from a jack due to the fact that fury is additive and focus is not, by that I mean that you get to spend on the beasts what you use on the caster. This is amped up considering shepherds love for sitting behind the NBT. Also you get snipe on your caster with the NBT I disagree on the FURY / FOCUS trade-off here. For a melee beast FURY is better hands-down, since you just spend what you want and then typically that beast is lost in a trade so you don't care about running it hot. With a ranged beast however the opposite is true. Your Neph bolty typically spends 3 FURY (snipe, boost, boost) and is far enough away to avoid reprisal. This means you have a liability of almost all your available FURY from a lock in one shot (typically FURY 6-7, 1-2 upkeeps and you need to camp 2-3 to stay alive). Compare this to the incredible efficiency of shooting jacks with power-up. The jack gets 1 free FOCUS from power-up, and if you need to boost (often not since you have better RAT on ranged jacks than beasts) you can do so for 1 FOC from your pool. For the same 3 FURY that a warlock is biting into from her pool to fuel a bolty a cygnar 'caster can fuel 3-4 hunters (I'm assuming 1 will be aiming and thus need no boost to hit, although arguably against most heavies none of them need to boost to hit at RAT 7). TLDR: imo it's a no-contest - for ranged jacks (and particularly ranged lights) FOCUS is far superior to FURY -und_ed
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 7, 2018 10:47:40 GMT
Nah, FURY is still better.
You don't end up losing focus if you end up rolling triple 1s to hit.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jan 7, 2018 12:52:57 GMT
Really welsh?
You've still got to deal with 2 FURY on the table (snipe, boost to hit), with which your Cygnar counterpart has already powered up 2 hunters.
For ranged I'll take FOCUS any day. The only time it's even a question is when you have a random RoF, ie the Seraph vs the Leviathan.
-und_ed
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 7, 2018 13:00:28 GMT
I believe it was sarcasm on welsh part
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 7, 2018 14:34:29 GMT
Alas, whilst I am normally a sarcastic git, I'm not being so this time. At least not as much.
Firstly, the issue is what you are comparing, you're comparing a model against another from THE rooty tooty six gun shooty faction. Not to mention the Hunter is probably the best light with a gun in the whole game. He's almost too good at his job.
So that's your first problem, have you tried looking at the other warmachine factions for their gunjacks? The average RAT in Khador is 4, the Average RAT in Menoth is 5, the average MAT in Cryx is 5, the average MAT in Ret is also 5, although the 2 new lights are RAT6. And the average RAT in Cygnar is also 6, the Hunter is the exception rather than the rule. The Average RAT in Legion is...... 5.
So against the majority of jacks, the Seraph and the Bolt Thrower (as they are the ones this thread is about.) Hit, on average, about as much as your average warjack. Whilst there is a far amount of RNG14 in the game, its still quite rare on warjacks.
Now granted, power up is a thing, but FURY is still better in these conditions. You have to look at the total mobility of said beast and warjack, now the Bolt Thrower and Seraph are both Spd6, and the Serpah pretty much has pathfinder due to the fact he's a great big ugly bat. This allows them to get into position much easier than warjacks, who generally don't have pathfinder on their shooty jacks. Granted, the Hunter is the exception rather than the rule again. But you do not get to aim as much as you think, unless you have hunters running all over the place.
But the biggest issue is that you have to apply focus at the start of your turn, you don't have to do that with fury. And that is why it was always be better than focus. If you mess up the hit roll, the second focus is wasted. And focus spent subtracts abilities from the warcaster. As opposed to warbeasts that generate FURY outside of the warlock. None of your warlocks give a monkeys about handing out fury, but also leaving enough on them to cast the spells they want, because it's done the other way around. Now a Bolt Thrower will ALWAYS guarantee you 3 Fury, whether by using it to shoot, or, if he misses his shot because you rolled triple 1, it's no biggie, you can rile for the last fury point. You can't do that with focus, if you miss you have taken away from the warcaster something that they cannot get back.
And don't get me started on warjacks with random shots vs warbeasts with random shots.
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