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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 4, 2018 20:34:41 GMT
My thoughts: Seraph - great toolset, could be costed 13.
NBT - great light, could be probably cheaper. Bloodseer - situationally useful, nothing to change.
Protector - sad joke, especially after Shieldguard become commonplace. Guard dog is not worth 10 points. Make him 8 and maybe more Pow. As he is right now - not worth it.
Soldier - bad, expensive.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 4, 2018 20:48:59 GMT
Swampmist to be fair, the new retribution lights are silly good for their cost. Like...way to good for what they do. In the Christmas Cid I continually compared the woldwatcher to them and was sorely depressed. The funny thing is, the woldwatcher is not a terrible light after CiD. I'm still not sure how they got through CiD unchanged...*sigh* oh well. Vyross 2 can run them for a disgusting terrain ignoring gunline of doom that hits like a train with synergy and empower....and thats the obvious combo... I will just say, Oracles is the best legion theme right now and seraphs are always taken in that theme. I think the OP is kind of off on just how bad the seraph is. I will say ROF3 in general is horrible for the game. D3+1 should be the standard. I do think the niphilim in general need some help. Legion is not like other factions that can turn their lights into heavy hitters. (Pretty much any other faction in hordes at this point). I think all of them could use minor tweaks. I do worry about swordsmen though, the wrong tweak and they could be gross in mass.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Jan 4, 2018 21:28:12 GMT
Swampmist to be fair, the new retribution lights are silly good for their cost. Like...way to good for what they do. In the Christmas Cid I continually compared the woldwatcher to them and was sorely depressed. The funny thing is, the woldwatcher is not a terrible light after CiD. I'm still not sure how they got through CiD unchanged...*sigh* oh well. Vyross 2 can run them for a disgusting terrain ignoring gunline of doom that hits like a train with synergy and empower....and thats the obvious combo... I will just say, Oracles is the best legion theme right now and seraphs are always taken in that theme. I think the OP is kind of off on just how bad the seraph is. I will say ROF3 in general is horrible for the game. D3+1 should be the standard. I do think the niphilim in general need some help. Legion is not like other factions that can turn their lights into heavy hitters. (Pretty much any other faction in hordes at this point). I think all of them could use minor tweaks. I do worry about swordsmen though, the wrong tweak and they could be gross in mass. I agree with you point on the lights, other than the raek. It is just good. Being able to throw buffs on it can make it just.. amazing. Only light I have not used and keep meaning to is the tearph, need to just do it one of these days and see how it performs now. But everyone so far seems to be on board with the neph., something needs to change bit not quite sure if PP will address them or not. With OR, going through CID hopefully the lights will get an eyeballing. I also agree with your point on the swordsmen, they are good period. How ever delivery is always the issue with them, and PP is in kind of a corner when it comes to them can't give them def 15 that's just absurd.. well maybe not, troll champs have 14 while b2b so maybe. Making them speed 7 would be a tad much also.. arm 14? What's the point? Upping cmd not really a good option either it's already 9. Ps 12 possibly? I dono, seems like that could get out of hand with overtake, cleave, and precision strike. Repo possibly? Or blade shield? Don't know.. sorry got a little off topic there. Speaking of neph. Other than the lights, Zuriel could use some help also, mainly his animus. He would be a terror if all they did was give him gun fighter.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 4, 2018 21:51:47 GMT
I also agree with your point on the swordsmen, they are good period. How ever delivery is always the issue with them, and PP is in kind of a corner when it comes to them can't give them def 15 that's just absurd.. well maybe not, troll champs have 14 while b2b so maybe. Making them speed 7 would be a tad much also.. arm 14? What's the point? Upping cmd not really a good option either it's already 9. Ps 12 possibly? I dono, seems like that could get out of hand with overtake, cleave, and precision strike. Repo possibly? Or blade shield? Don't know.. sorry got a little off topic there. Honestly, I don't think they need anything. They're a proper glass cannon. They certainly don't need a def or damage buff. Repo seems random. We have a few defensive buffs that they like (occultation, cloak of ash, iron flesh), so I honestly think they're fine.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 4, 2018 21:55:49 GMT
Comparing raw stats across factions doesn't work, and it is even worse if you want to compare warbeasts to warjacks. It's tempting, but turns into an exercise in frustration. Imagine the Bolt Thrower in circle (ie snipe on tanith, una, kreugers, bradigus). It would be auto include on anything with a tricky nifty gun. How about the if we got the Krea or the Agonizer? How about the Gladiator? We are balanced by the tools available to our warcaster, it's not the power on the surface but the potential power. Thats why design and balance is hard, you can't just add something good and balanced because it might be too powerful when used in conjunction with another tool.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 4, 2018 22:13:40 GMT
For the OP - I like the Seraph (though any random rate of fire makes me sad) and think that it is great. Though I wouldn't complain if it was solid ROF2 and/or 1 point cheaper. Though I think there are other issues that need more attention first?
The Neph are one of those. I have already made more than enough arm chair game designer posts about suggestions. If you want to read those threads, you would see that you're not alone in some of your sentiment.
In Gernal - my own musings I also am conflicted... while I really do believe that Legion (and hordes in general) could use a little boost - JVM wins. A lot. So, is it really a Legion issue or do I need to just gut good? It makes me pause to pander such things.
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Post by custardboy on Jan 4, 2018 22:19:56 GMT
Blightrain, im going to have to disgree with you on point cost of the bolt thrower, let's look at trolls real quick. 2 beasts have far strike. 2 casters have versions of it. Implaer - 11 points Bomber - 19 points Gunnbjorn - snipe 2 fury. Yes it affects a unit bit to put it on himself is a wash and at a 6 fury caster that's a strap, Sam can be said for any versions of lylith as well though. Grim 2 - and it's a feat turn. It can be argued that the troll beasts are better, but really only because of the crazy buffs that trolls throw around. Let's look at threat ranges real quick and ignore gunnbjons crazy good gun for a second. Gunn - speed 6, range 12, farstrike + 4 = 22" Not bad for 11 points with a crazy good 1 shot gun. Lyl1 - speed 7, range 12, farstrike + 4, slipstream + 2, apparition + 2 = 27" threat, that's pretty damn awesome for 25 points. Sure it's only pow 12, but look at buffs and debuff in an ideal situation real quick. Parasite - -3 arm, and soon we will have a gator attachment that'll cast that for us. Kiss of lyss - +2 damage That's a pow 17 at a threat of 27 inches. Granted that is an Ideal situation. But that is pretty bonkers, no one wants that shooting that their caster. Apparition? Where is that coming from? The soul slave attaches to minions and even then can't cast parasite. The impaler is definitely worse than the bolter, no question. Seraph, bloodseer and bolter are all good. I frequently use all of them. The protector is a bit naff. The soldier needs an animus that does something. This just seems like complaining for its own sake.
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Post by Swampmist on Jan 5, 2018 0:51:22 GMT
Swampmist to be fair, the new retribution lights are silly good for their cost. Like...way to good for what they do. In the Christmas Cid I continually compared the woldwatcher to them and was sorely depressed. The funny thing is, the woldwatcher is not a terrible light after CiD. I'm still not sure how they got through CiD unchanged...*sigh* oh well. Vyross 2 can run them for a disgusting terrain ignoring gunline of doom that hits like a train with synergy and empower....and thats the obvious combo... I will just say, Oracles is the best legion theme right now and seraphs are always taken in that theme. I think the OP is kind of off on just how bad the seraph is. I will say ROF3 in general is horrible for the game. D3+1 should be the standard. I do think the niphilim in general need some help. Legion is not like other factions that can turn their lights into heavy hitters. (Pretty much any other faction in hordes at this point). I think all of them could use minor tweaks. I do worry about swordsmen though, the wrong tweak and they could be gross in mass. The seraph sees play beccause without slipstream the faction actually just doesn't function. That doesn't mean that we aren't overrpaying for it however.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 5, 2018 1:31:31 GMT
Swampmist to be fair, the new retribution lights are silly good for their cost. Like...way to good for what they do. In the Christmas Cid I continually compared the woldwatcher to them and was sorely depressed. The funny thing is, the woldwatcher is not a terrible light after CiD. I'm still not sure how they got through CiD unchanged...*sigh* oh well. Vyross 2 can run them for a disgusting terrain ignoring gunline of doom that hits like a train with synergy and empower....and thats the obvious combo... I will just say, Oracles is the best legion theme right now and seraphs are always taken in that theme. I think the OP is kind of off on just how bad the seraph is. I will say ROF3 in general is horrible for the game. D3+1 should be the standard. I do think the niphilim in general need some help. Legion is not like other factions that can turn their lights into heavy hitters. (Pretty much any other faction in hordes at this point). I think all of them could use minor tweaks. I do worry about swordsmen though, the wrong tweak and they could be gross in mass. The seraph sees play beccause without slipstream the faction actually just doesn't function. That doesn't mean that we aren't overrpaying for it however. I would like to argue that i don't have a problem never playing with the thing. But again, personal experience does not fix a faction.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Jan 5, 2018 14:43:43 GMT
Custardboy, yeah the spell slave I missed some one corrected me on that earlier. Anand looks like I confused mirage on lylith 2 with 1... oops 😛
Also I'd agree the bitter is better than the implaer also. Just threw out an example as to threat extensions.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 5, 2018 15:51:58 GMT
What hordes faction and/or individual warbeasts do you guys think has/are (mostly) appropriately costed beasts? I am curious as to what we all think the baseline should be.
From my perspective, it's Skorne (almost across the board except for their Gargantuans and the Canoneer). Circle has some beasts I'm extremely jealous of (namely all their Satyrs). And of course, Grymkin.
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Post by blighttrain on Jan 5, 2018 16:20:42 GMT
If you look at the Nephilim side-by-side with the Cyclops-line of light warbeasts in Skorne, they don't compare favorably at points value. The soldier costs ~28% more than the savage and is saddled with a self only animus that doesn't fit with it's innate abilities (precision strike), it's 'better' at fighting but is flight worth 2 points for such a small beast? Shaman vs. Bloodseer, I'd switch any day, a pow 12 gun on the shaman that completely ignores LOS, sign me up. Bolt Thrower is certainly better than the Raider in melee, but in shooting capability it does 95% of the same job for a ~22% discount. (Legion doesn't take a NBT for it's melee stats/abilities, they are being overvalued here). Brute vs. Protector...brute is better all around and cheaper by 25%!
I know this sounds like I'm nitpicking, but If I used all 4 of these models in 1 army list, (Children of the Dragon, primarily) it frees up 6 points for a UA/Solo, (Crealix, Incubi, Swordsman UA, Bayal, Nyss Warlord) all great value. It makes a difference. Why should we have to play "a-man-down"?
If we had access to slipstream on any other model in faction, the seraph would drop off army lists completely. A crappy random shot gun, pathetic melee, on a flying "heavy" is beyond expensive at 14pts even if it can unstick itself. Sure it's ok for transfers, but so are shredders.
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Jan 5, 2018 16:36:19 GMT
If you look at the Nephilim side-by-side with the Cyclops-line of light warbeasts in Skorne, they don't compare favorably at points value. The soldier costs ~28% more than the savage and is saddled with a self only animus that doesn't fit with it's innate abilities (precision strike), it's 'better' at fighting but is flight worth 2 points for such a small beast? Shaman vs. Bloodseer, I'd switch any day, a pow 12 gun on the shaman that completely ignores LOS, sign me up. Bolt Thrower is certainly better than the Raider in melee, but in shooting capability it does 95% of the same job for a ~22% discount. (Legion doesn't take a NBT for it's melee stats/abilities, they are being overvalued here). Brute vs. Protector...brute is better all around and cheaper by 25%! I know this sounds like I'm nitpicking, but If I used all 4 of these models in 1 army list, (Children of the Dragon, primarily) it frees up 6 points for a UA/Solo, (Crealix, Incubi, Swordsman UA, Bayal, Nyss Warlord) all great value. It makes a difference. Why should we have to play "a-man-down"? If we had access to slipstream on any other model in faction, the seraph would drop off army lists completely. A crappy random shot gun, pathetic melee, on a flying "heavy" is beyond expensive at 14pts even if it can unstick itself. Sure it's ok for transfers, but so are shredders. Why do people keep complaining about the Seraph's melee? It is clearly a support/range beast. Especially considering that you made exatly that point about the bolter, I don't see his melee as much of an issue ... Take the cheaper Neraph as a good flying melee beast, adn be done if you hate the Seraph so much. Not every models clicks for everybody, but I think the Seraph has enough people playing it to argue that it is somewhat viable ...
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Jan 5, 2018 17:22:13 GMT
Huruka, I think it's mainly because, by comparison to other support beasts cost a etc. Most supporting beasts don't have placement 2" but I still think it's that. But that's my guess. I know we hate comparing faction beasts. But for arguments sake let's look at other beasts that effect movement by animi from other factions. Granted, again, they are not placement abilities and that cannot be stressed enough.
Trolls- Axer - 10 points, rush Sea King - 36 points, vortex of the deep, does not have to target enemies.
Skorne - Gladiator - 15 points , rush
Minions - Uhhhh swamp horror I guess? Eith elasticity?? Lol
Grym - Nothing all range "self", that would be spme sort of threat extension
Circle - Shadow horn?? - 12 points, pussinace I guess?
Legion - sereph - 14 pts, slipstream
I mean really there army a ton of beasts that affect, "movement", really that can target other models. And the models that are listed fill dramatically different rolls. Having a 2" placement that is not a caster spell on a beast is very unique. Is it 14 points unique.. I'm not sure my opinions with legion will always be biased I started with legion and still like it more than my other factions.
As for the sereph having a crap melee weapon. First of all if he is in melee, something has gone terribly wrong.
As for his gun, being d3 and having flare. People have brought up some very good points about rate of fire etc.
But the fact remains effectively making azerial rat 8 is a very scary thing. Allowing you to dump fury into dmg and a reload. It is just a shame that sereph is restricted in CoTD.
I don't think sereph is over costed, or bad. By any means, he brings so much to the table. I believe that the core issue with legion at the moment is how restrictive some of the themes are. But that's a different issue for a different thread.
If any thing sereph needs a rat bump so he isn't quite as hunger for fury, A +1 to rat would quell some issues that the faction is facing. im referring to how shepards now only remove 1 fury as opposed to up to 3? In mkii? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And I think that is the real issue here, we don't quite have the fury management that we used to have and it can make things pretty difficult, because the reality of legion beasts is that they are all fury hogs really.
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fanguad
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by fanguad on Jan 5, 2018 17:58:08 GMT
Since JVM has been brought up in this thread, I'll repeat something he told me: you need to use all the kit on the model. ie, you need to use Slipstream AND Flare on the Seraph to get 14 points of value, or in the specific case I was talking to him about, free charges AND blight storm/wind ravager/frostbite on the sorceresss.
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