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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Jan 3, 2018 22:28:59 GMT
For the other long time players out there... Who ever thought they'd ever see a major tournament with 1 Cygnar pairing with Haley2?
What would the you of mid mk2 say if you found more people were running stryker1 then Haley2? I know most people wanted more list variety but this just feels wierd.
Although from the looks of it it seems she's just been replaced with Haley 3 in gravediggers.
Thoughts?
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 3, 2018 23:05:01 GMT
I thought this was coming when the nerf was announced because of the apparent growth of infantry, which continues to grow. I also found it interesting (and nice) that there are a lot more Bump in the Night Grymkin lists, whereas the last couple tournaments were nearly 100% Dark Menagerie, which really shows how much the shift is happening, and really shows how low Haley2's stock has dropped since she can't control those lists anymore.
I knew that Haley3 and Nemo3 were going to dominate the lists, but I'm surprised that it isn't more one favored in Haley3's side, perhaps because it requires one to buy a lot of new models? I just thought there would be more of it since it feels like she has game into way more lists than anything else we currently have, even if Nemo3 is nearly an auto-win into some stuff.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 4, 2018 2:58:02 GMT
The themes and the Haley2 feat nerf coming at the same time really put a damper on her. She lost Deadeye and MKii decel as well. I bet she's still very good but no longer the monster she was. Add in Cygnar player's frustrations with her and she's just sort of in a bad spot.
Haley3 Gravediggers is really good. SR2017 took a while to come into its own but I think people have learned how these scenarios work and have adopted their gameplay to fit it. Haley3 is great in SR2017, either going first or second, she combines infantry with jacks like no one else in the game. She bricks up a bit, which hurts on certain scenarios, but if you have a gameplan she can handle it because...she's Haley3.
In MKii the strongest pair for ages was Haley2/Stryker2. Now we're in an age of Haley3 + Stryker1/Kraye/the-Siege's/Nemo3. And there's more, lots more, that can be played.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243 
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Post by cain on Jan 4, 2018 7:15:45 GMT
Agree it feels weird. Guess they finally nerfed her enough. She is still ok, but now has bigger problems then ever with the lack off infantry buff and not being able to control infantry.
On the other side, their is still a haley on top. Haley3 seems to be top notch. But she is harder to play and more rough on the clock.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 4, 2018 9:13:23 GMT
I think Haley 2 has suffered from PP being unable/unwilling to identify her feat as the thing that made her busted. If they had changed her feat back last February instead of losing Deflection for Force Field and tuning down Time Bomb, she probably could have been left at that.
As it stands she has no way to protect her army at ranged which is a pretty big drawback, I guess she could play Gravediggers as they protect themselves, but having no Squire for the Re-roll and extra focus sucks, and Haley 3 is probably just a better Gravediggers caster.
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Post by potato on Jan 4, 2018 13:44:37 GMT
In my post-nerf games with Haley2 I haven't really noticed a significant difference - I sometimes find myself rolling above the number of enemy models in her control area. You just have to pick the right matchups for her. Being able to get 1.5 Striders worth of shooting out of just one is a relatively new and positive development, as is the new and improved Sons theme. As the meta shifts away from big battlegroups I expect it will become a bigger issue for her. The Old Witch 3 Bump list that has become popular lately is a nightmare for her, and stuff live Dark Host Coven, Gastonne2 dudespam and similar lists make it more difficult too. Thankfully Haley3 shores up almost all of these matchups (OW3 is a notable exception) so we still get to play a control/denial style, it just requires buying a bunch of Trencher models  |
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 4, 2018 20:58:38 GMT
In my post-nerf games with Haley2 I haven't really noticed a significant difference - I sometimes find myself rolling above the number of enemy models in her control area. You just have to pick the right matchups for her. Being able to get 1.5 Striders worth of shooting out of just one is a relatively new and positive development, as is the new and improved Sons theme. As the meta shifts away from big battlegroups I expect it will become a bigger issue for her. The Old Witch 3 Bump list that has become popular lately is a nightmare for her, and stuff live Dark Host Coven, Gastonne2 dudespam and similar lists make it more difficult too. Thankfully Haley3 shores up almost all of these matchups (OW3 is a notable exception) so we still get to play a control/denial style, it just requires buying a bunch of Trencher models Yeah, I really think the new pair is either Haley3 or Nemo3. I think you start there and then you start asking "what can't I play this into?" Haley2 can do everything but seeing her entire kit get nerfed in the last two years is pretty damn disheartening. No deadeye, no decel, her feat reworked twice, Timebomb takes a big hit. I think potato is right, if they had nerfed the feat to what it is now I think some of those other changes would not be necessary. Timebomb is a four cost nuke and it should have remained the same. Deadeye is super nice, so is decel/deflec. So, I dunno. Her feat can still be a real dick kick and Lord knows it was enough to keep her in the #1 spot even with all the other nerfs. But now? It feels like she can't dependably do her thing, keep her army safe and alpha twice. And that lack of dependability really hurts her. Certainly matches exist where she is a real kick in the jimmy but as an off list does it do it enough? I'm not certain. Maybe if they gave her decel and flipped Tomb Bomb back (or reduced the cost!) it would all work. Or maybe it's fine. It really feels like she went from an A+ to an A to a solid B+ now and in our heavy roster of casters I'm not if a B+ gets it done. |
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 4, 2018 21:22:47 GMT
I totally agree that Haley3 and Nemo3 are the top dogs and will be the first choice for a good pair. I still don't think either of them are a great choice into Coven Dark Host, though, and I have a really hard time figuring out what the hell is going to do it. I think I can make a Storm Division list that can get it done, but I rarely get to play against Cryx. I tried H3 Gravediggers into it the other day and I got cruuuuuushed. Haley2 can't hold back all of those banes anymore and totally crumbles against it. Locking down the Wraith Engine and a couple other things is nice, but those banes will get enough work done.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 5, 2018 8:52:53 GMT
I totally agree that Haley3 and Nemo3 are the top dogs and will be the first choice for a good pair. I still don't think either of them are a great choice into Coven Dark Host, though, and I have a really hard time figuring out what the hell is going to do it. I think I can make a Storm Division list that can get it done, but I rarely get to play against Cryx. I tried H3 Gravediggers into it the other day and I got cruuuuuushed. Haley2 can't hold back all of those banes anymore and totally crumbles against it. Locking down the Wraith Engine and a couple other things is nice, but those banes will get enough work done. Doesn't the cloud wall protect you from charges? Bane Riders with their boosted attacks are pretty much that lists only hope at hitting DEF 15, so taking away their charges even for a while helps a lot. Also, a caster at DEF 18 is pretty hard to kill, even for Coven at FOC 9 boosted, especially if you can get cover or concealment. The only magical in that list should be Stygian Abyss, which is even only POW 12, so you should be able to keep your clones safe. They do have some shenanigans to just go through your army directly to your caster, but remember that neither Curse of Shadows, nor Veil of Mists lets them ignore line of sight, so you can still body block. Baby Haley should be able to kill the Wraith Engine if it gets too close and Trenchers can probably deal with Banes. I'm interested in which part you experienced as doing the crushing. I agree that Haley 2 doesn't handle infantry lists very well anymore. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 5, 2018 9:14:54 GMT
Yeah I would have thought that Haley 3 Gravediggers would be pretty good into Coven Dark Host, even with Vet Leader the Riders need 7s to hit, and the Warriors need 8s. If you can deny the Riders charge with a cloud wall and just wait out the feat it should probably be fine
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jan 5, 2018 11:26:06 GMT
Haley3 gravediggers is doing fine into cryx for me, coven included. But i have added in ayiana&Holt for the cryx match (and grymkin/menoth).
I have tried siege1 and nemo3, but think i prefere haley3.
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 7, 2018 2:25:04 GMT
The list is much faster than Haley3 unless everything runs turn 1, but I didn't, so I was a bit too far back and he was able to clear zones pretty easy and score on me quickly. Almost felt like his going second was an advantage because of further deployment and ability to score bottom of 2. I should have had more dudes out there contesting. Baby Haley did indeed kill the wraith engine when it got too close. Bane cav were getting picked off here and there, but mostly were clearing zones while the warriors flooded me. He was pretty lucky on dice rolls and removed quite a few trenchers. Finn was useless and flubbed his attack rolls as usual.
I guess next time I just need to run up and cloud wall the next turn to have more stuff on scenario, but I don't know.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 7, 2018 3:51:01 GMT
The list is much faster than Haley3 unless everything runs turn 1, but I didn't, so I was a bit too far back and he was able to clear zones pretty easy and score on me quickly. Almost felt like his going second was an advantage because of further deployment and ability to score bottom of 2. I should have had more dudes out there contesting. Baby Haley did indeed kill the wraith engine when it got too close. Bane cav were getting picked off here and there, but mostly were clearing zones while the warriors flooded me. He was pretty lucky on dice rolls and removed quite a few trenchers. Finn was useless and flubbed his attack rolls as usual. I guess next time I just need to run up and cloud wall the next turn to have more stuff on scenario, but I don't know. Not running top of 1 is a big error. Cryx has like one dude with a gun in the whole faction. You need to run forward and claim board space. |
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 7, 2018 17:21:54 GMT
The list is much faster than Haley3 unless everything runs turn 1, but I didn't, so I was a bit too far back and he was able to clear zones pretty easy and score on me quickly. Almost felt like his going second was an advantage because of further deployment and ability to score bottom of 2. I should have had more dudes out there contesting. Baby Haley did indeed kill the wraith engine when it got too close. Bane cav were getting picked off here and there, but mostly were clearing zones while the warriors flooded me. He was pretty lucky on dice rolls and removed quite a few trenchers. Finn was useless and flubbed his attack rolls as usual. I guess next time I just need to run up and cloud wall the next turn to have more stuff on scenario, but I don't know. Not running top of 1 is a big error. Cryx has like one dude with a gun in the whole faction. You need to run forward and claim board space. I mean, most of the army ran. I didn't run the trenchers, which was the biggest mistake. I'm just so used to digging them in or cloud walling right away. It was a reflexive error. They should have went further and everything else should have ran further, so yeah, you're totally right. |
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Post by potato on Jan 8, 2018 13:51:17 GMT
Speaking of which, I got to play into Coven just this weekend - got to experience the fun of seeing the Egregore contest three of the four scenario elements in Outlast.
It was a pretty close and fun game, but I think the "Egregore" needs to be limited to reinforcing once per damage roll. With the hard cap on turns and the fact that they are naturally strong on scenario (LOS blocking terrain + theme clouds + veil) they are really strong at playing the long game.
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