|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 8, 2018 14:01:44 GMT
Speaking of which, I got to play into Coven just this weekend - got to experience the fun of seeing the Egregore contest three of the four scenario elements in Outlast. It was a pretty close and fun game, but I think the "Egregore" needs to be limited to reinforcing once per damage roll. With the hard cap on turns and the fact that they are naturally strong on scenario (LOS blocking terrain + theme clouds + veil) they are really strong at playing the long game. I think changing the Covens damage reduction would be like removing Deflection from Haley 2, yes it is a nerf, but it is not what makes them too powerful. Like in the case of Haley 2, it is Covens feat that is too strong, nerfing other aspects would be just dancing around the issue.
The only change I would make (for the moment) it getting rid of the -2 mat and rat aspect of the feat. Having LOS reduced to 5" is plenty for a feat, the debuff on top is just too much.
|
|
|
Post by potato on Jan 8, 2018 15:09:56 GMT
I'm not sure if I think that would be enough or even that relevant. With a time walk feat like theirs I think you just have to accept that you aren't getting much done, even if your MAT/RAT scores aren't affected. On their feat turn I usually just reposition a few models to contest the scenario and then just flip the clock - this is because I've found most coven players take a very cagey approach on their feat turn and completely deny attacks. Sort of how we used to do with Haley2 If I were to tackle the feat I'd change it to be like Kaelyssa's, but that would make them pretty crummy into Cygnar so that change feels unlikely. I still contend that their big issue is their survivability and the scenario shenanigans that arise when you have a near-invincible model able to contest zones. Removing any of the Egregore's permanent defensive abilities (triple-reinforce, steady, stealth) would at least be a step in the right direction.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 8, 2018 16:16:20 GMT
I'm not sure if I think that would be enough or even that relevant. With a time walk feat like theirs I think you just have to accept that you aren't getting much done, even if your MAT/RAT scores aren't affected. On their feat turn I usually just reposition a few models to contest the scenario and then just flip the clock - this is because I've found most coven players take a very cagey approach on their feat turn and completely deny attacks. Sort of how we used to do with Haley2 If I were to tackle the feat I'd change it to be like Kaelyssa's, but that would make them pretty crummy into Cygnar so that change feels unlikely. I still contend that their big issue is their survivability and the scenario shenanigans that arise when you have a near-invincible model able to contest zones. Removing any of the Egregore's permanent defensive abilities (triple-reinforce, steady, stealth) would at least be a step in the right direction. It will be interesting to see if they change Coven when they release the Black Fleet CID results. I know she was not included in the cycle, but Haley 2 was not put out to CID and she was changed, so there may be hope yet.
|
|
|
Post by sludgeogre on Jan 8, 2018 17:24:24 GMT
I like where you guys are going. I thought I was on a dead scenario that I'd be able to contest forever, but wow, there is no getting them off of scenario, and banes are intensely good at clearing the scenarios, although Haley3 gravediggers high defense should screw that up, I just got diced and didn't leave enough dudes on the zones.
I agree that the mat/rat debuff is really ball busting on top of the LOS debuff. It's one hell of a time walk, especially against Cygnar guns.
|
|
|
Post by potato on Jan 8, 2018 18:19:10 GMT
One other possible fix I have seen floated is to make them into a warcaster unit while changing almost nothing else (except where absolutely necessary). Depending on the CMD value they ended up with, the ball would at least be tethered to the witches if you wanted to get cute and contest with it - assuming the Egregore wasn't made the officer. While this fix would be elegant it takes away a bit from the flavour of the Coven.
I agree that I have the same hopes re: having them change a model that wasn't in CID.
That said, if we are talking unexpected errata, I would also think eleaps stand a very good chance of being changed to not bounce off of Lightning immune models like they have done for CoI.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 8, 2018 19:47:00 GMT
That said, if we are talking unexpected errata, I would also think eleaps stand a very good chance of being changed to not bounce off of Lightning immune models like they have done for CoI. Get out! Just get out!
|
|
cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
|
Post by cain on Jan 8, 2018 20:00:50 GMT
I would be very surprised and disepointed If Coven dont get a nerf at the same time as the cryx release.
They are one pair with denny.
They have several levels of problems; feat, being unkilleble because of how the ball and Focus work, and being solos.
Just taking away the -2 debuf on feat is far from enough. Often it doesnt matter since i cant shoot or reach them. The feat should be stealth and the debuff. They need to be a warcaster unit or fix the Focus issue ( so they can only redusere 5 damage per damage roll)
|
|
|
Post by potato on Jan 8, 2018 20:52:11 GMT
That said, if we are talking unexpected errata, I would also think eleaps stand a very good chance of being changed to not bounce off of Lightning immune models like they have done for CoI. Get out! Just get out! its going to suck when it happens, but it feels sort of inevitable at this point.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 8, 2018 21:20:58 GMT
its going to suck when it happens, but it feels sort of inevitable at this point. E leap and lightning generator are fine, other factions need to stop female dogging
|
|
|
Post by sludgeogre on Jan 9, 2018 20:07:29 GMT
If they nerf how E=leap targets, then we're just left with a lot of squishy dudes with low pow guns. They would have to change so much about how our electric jank stuff is designed to make that work in a way that doesn't totally cripple that side of Cygnar. In the end, they are pow 10 shots that can get boosted in a few different ways and get +2 from Firefly. I have no idea why people complain so incessantly about it, it's very strong into some of the game and totally useless into other parts of it, which is called balance, the way things should be. If anything, Nemo3 needs a bit of a nerf in how his feat is applied, not completely taking away the one thing that makes some lists actually work.
In the long run, I feel like if someone is going up against a lot of E-leaps and they are leaving all of their necessary solo's within 4 inches of other targets, they should have expected to get crushed. I got a lot of wins when I started simply because the guys around here hadn't played against Cygnar for a while, but once they realized they just had to place differently, it got a lot harder for me, quickly. It's still funny when a newbie shows up or someone that hasn't played for a while and a whole unit dies to a Storm Strider, but the same thing happens when people drop dumb lists into Madrak1, and I don't hear people calling for a nerf.
/end rant
|
|
|
Post by minmaximus on Jan 9, 2018 20:30:11 GMT
I think the bigger issue with eleaps (and what annoys people so much about them) is less their target sniping potential and more their "technically not an attack" nonsense.
There's just so much edge case stuff that eleaps break that its honestly obnoxious and it would be great to see that trimmed down and eleap rebalanced with that in mind if need be rather than muddling through it.
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Jan 9, 2018 21:00:11 GMT
I think the bigger issue with eleaps (and what annoys people so much about them) is less their target sniping potential and more their "technically not an attack" nonsense. There's just so much edge case stuff that eleaps break that its honestly obnoxious and it would be great to see that trimmed down and eleap rebalanced with that in mind if need be rather than muddling through it. Continuous Fire and Corrosion are not attacks. Razor Wall and Covering Fire are not attacks. The damage has no Attack Roll and is thus not an Attack. Loads of things in the game are not attacks. Electroleap, while plentiful in Cygnar, does not have a monopoly on non-attacks. Throws, Slams, collateral damage, on and on. There's plenty of it.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 10, 2018 8:21:49 GMT
I think the bigger issue with eleaps (and what annoys people so much about them) is less their target sniping potential and more their "technically not an attack" nonsense. There's just so much edge case stuff that eleaps break that its honestly obnoxious and it would be great to see that trimmed down and eleap rebalanced with that in mind if need be rather than muddling through it. Continuous Fire and Corrosion are not attacks. Razor Wall and Covering Fire are not attacks. The damage has no Attack Roll and is thus not an Attack. Loads of things in the game are not attacks. Electroleap, while plentiful in Cygnar, does not have a monopoly on non-attacks. Throws, Slams, collateral damage, on and on. There's plenty of it. But continuous effects are usually specifically called out on things that trigger on getting destroyed in addition to "destroyed by an enemy attack"
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 10, 2018 9:16:34 GMT
Continuous Fire and Corrosion are not attacks. Razor Wall and Covering Fire are not attacks. The damage has no Attack Roll and is thus not an Attack. Loads of things in the game are not attacks. Electroleap, while plentiful in Cygnar, does not have a monopoly on non-attacks. Throws, Slams, collateral damage, on and on. There's plenty of it. But continuous effects are usually specifically called out on things that trigger on getting destroyed in addition to "destroyed by an enemy attack" So? It's fine that there are work-arounds to abilities in this game
|
|
Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
|
Post by Choco on Jan 11, 2018 19:27:21 GMT
Just so that I am on the same page here with everyone complaining about the Coven, what is this focus problem regarding taking damage? I'm going out on a limb and guessing that the damage can be divided between the witches and then each witch can spend focus individually to reduce it even more?
|
|