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Post by macdaddy on Jan 4, 2018 17:41:47 GMT
The issue for me isn't that I think they're bad but its more support bloat on trolls. Unless they run after they ambush they're only marking models 14" from the board edge and if they do run you're spending 7 points minimum to get a couple mark targets. I can see taking them in KC where I'm less inclined to take the stone (although stealth removal is a pretty big deal still) but I'm not sure how they'll do. I'm planning to grab some once they come out to give them a try but I suspect to be underwhelmed. I think as an ambushing unit they actually offer more than just plain old mark target. Ambush allows them to get into back lines and contest or take out support models/solos. Rat 4 is bad but as someone has already pointed out it is feasible to make them rat 6 by either aiming or moving to within mark target range. Military rifles are high enough pow that any support model you hit (I know there are exceptions) should die fairly trivially. They also give you opportunities to contest backfield scenario pieces like a flag or zone which can give you a 1 or 2 point extra lead putting pressure on an opponent. I think they are a nice cheap option to have for a gun-line or even a combine arms force. Think of fire eaters at rat 8 and on fire...they will blow up just about any infantry in the game regardless of def with that much accuracy.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 4, 2018 18:21:06 GMT
Yes, +2 RAT is nice but they're a fragile unit that needs to be dangerously close to the target to give the bonus, and they don't have much offensive power of their own. You need one model in the unit within 5" of the target, and within 7" of the leader (or you can just run the leader into range), so they don't need to be dangerously close. Ambush also gives them the option of making the decision difficult for the opposing player, forcing him to move backwards to deal with the marking unit or forwards to deal with the unit with some punch. RAT4 isn't great, but Ambush makes it easier to get them into the back arc, and is effectively RAT6 in a lot of cases, since they can shoot the model they're marking. Doesn't change the fact that I still think what we need is more damage. Yet another support unit that can't bring the hurt in a faction full of support units and only useful in our one theme that has the lowest POW of all our themes.
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Post by greenjello on Jan 4, 2018 18:47:46 GMT
Doesn't change the fact that I still think what we need is more damage. Yet another support unit that can't bring the hurt in a faction full of support units and only useful in our one theme that has the lowest POW of all our themes. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "more damage". From what I can tell we have a number of units with low to middling RATs with above average damage (POW12-13) for ranged units. We also have one of the best ranged weapons in the game with the bomber's dual POW16s. Adding in an accuracy boost increases the damage output of these units by reducing how often they boost, or allowing for an additional damage boost on AOEs. Finally with Kriel Companies focus on ranged attacks, you're not going to get heavy hitters with ranged attacks, due to the nature of the game. Range attacks are lower power (generally 10s), melee is heavy hitters.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 4, 2018 19:53:41 GMT
Doesn't change the fact that I still think what we need is more damage. Yet another support unit that can't bring the hurt in a faction full of support units and only useful in our one theme that has the lowest POW of all our themes. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "more damage". From what I can tell we have a number of units with low to middling RATs with above average damage (POW12-13) for ranged units. We also have one of the best ranged weapons in the game with the bomber's dual POW16s. Adding in an accuracy boost increases the damage output of these units by reducing how often they boost, or allowing for an additional damage boost on AOEs. Finally with Kriel Companies focus on ranged attacks, you're not going to get heavy hitters with ranged attacks, due to the nature of the game. Range attacks are lower power (generally 10s), melee is heavy hitters. I mean literally "more damage" as in a way to boost the POW of my Kriel Company's guns or fists. Boosted POW 16s are great, but they aren't going to kill nearly as much as you'd think on paper. Either stuff is low enough arm that you don't need to boost damage, or if it's high enough arm that you have to boost damage it has enough boxes to survive even two boosted POW 16s. Then, if it's a beast or you don't hit the right columns it comes in and wrecks your bomber who can barely scratch paint with its melee attacks. It's even worse for our lower POW guns on infantry dudes. An unboosted POW 12 is going to do a maximum of 4 damage to an ARM 20 target, which just isn't enough to remove a lot of melee threats. Melee armies either have enough dudespam to make it to melee (where all our guns are useless), or enough ARM and Boxes to where they can't be hurt hard enough to matter before they get to you. Accuracy is nice, but it's only half the equation. You have to hit the target, but you also have to be able to hurt the target. Aiming, CRAs, Ambushing back strikes are all nice, but without the damage buff to make each shot count you're going to invest a whole lot of resources into not a lot of results. Kriel Company either needs some way of upping ranged POW, some source of auto-damage (snipers, corrosion, scather templates), or some way to actually do damage in melee after softening up the enemy to be viable. Right now, there's only a couple casters that can improve ranged POW, but none of them have an arc node through which they can safely cast their debuffs or you can spend a third of your points on a Mountain King (who is fantastic) but that option is not available to me, nor is it one I'd want to take. So that's what I want for Kriel Company, a way to increase the likelihood of actually damaging a target, not a way to make it easier to bounce rubber bullets off of them.
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Post by greenjello on Jan 4, 2018 20:11:33 GMT
So that's what I want for Kriel Company, a way to increase the likelihood of actually damaging a target, not a way to make it easier to bounce rubber bullets off of them. Okay, I don't think that's not going to happen. It appears that the design is for ranged attacks to soften up hard targets, and drop single wound infantry at range. Instead the philosophy appears to be have the hardest hits occur in melee. The few range damage buffs tend to be on casters. The few that existed in the game in mkII, such as Lady Aiyanna and Holt have been changed to be much more limited in their availability. So the few places where it used to be possible have become less accessible. Finally Trolls actually have above average damage in terms of ranged attacks, even if you don't feel they're enough.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 4, 2018 20:23:41 GMT
So that's what I want for Kriel Company, a way to increase the likelihood of actually damaging a target, not a way to make it easier to bounce rubber bullets off of them. Okay, I don't think that's not going to happen. It appears that the design is for ranged attacks to soften up hard targets, and drop single wound infantry at range. Instead the philosophy appears to be have the hardest hits occur in melee. The few range damage buffs tend to be on casters. The few that existed in the game in mkII, such as Lady Aiyanna and Holt have been changed to be much more limited in their availability. So the few places where it used to be possible have become less accessible. Finally Trolls actually have above average damage in terms of ranged attacks, even if you don't feel they're enough. If the design intent is for ranged attacks to soften the enemy before they get to you, then Kriel Company still needs some way to actually dispose of hard targets once they engage you. I'm reluctant to point to Khador jacks as an example, but ARM 20 on the field is not uncommon and many opponents can reach numbers higher than that. Hitting enemies isn't the problem I see. Hurting them is. And in Kriel Company's case hurting them in melee is the issue that needs to be resolved if we aren't going to get enough hurt at range to win. I feel I can make a better ranged list in PoD. It hits just as hard at range, with bombers, Gunny and D&S, but because I can take a mauler and EBDT (or whatever combination thereof), once my opponent crosses into my melee range I can actually still accomplish things instead of folding like a wet paper bag. That's aside from the other issue of Kriel Company, which is that it's a ranged list that can't see through clouds, can't see through forests, can't get around stealth (without taking and risking a krielstone), and has little to no ability to deal with enemy anti-ranged tech. The answer to those issues shouldn't have to come from Minions, but right now that's where it comes from.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jan 4, 2018 21:33:38 GMT
BTW I love my Carapace themed Cryx 'jack builds right now... And my Jaga-Jaga double Turtles/Swamp Horrors don't give a fig for your KC shooters since they'll be Rage backed when the arrive. Just went to the PP parts store lookin' for some Marauder arms (late to the band wagon), all sold out But I was able to get 2x Charger gun arms (hammer arms sold out??) to up my count to 4x Chargers. I's got shusting!!
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Post by greenjello on Jan 5, 2018 0:29:09 GMT
BTW I love my Carapace themed Cryx 'jack builds right now... And my Jaga-Jaga double Turtles/Swamp Horrors don't give a fig for your KC shooters since they'll be Rage backed when the arrive. Just went to the PP parts store lookin' for some Marauder arms (late to the band wagon), all sold out But I was able to get 2x Charger gun arms (hammer arms sold out??) to up my count to 4x Chargers. I's got shusting!! Sorry, I think you've taken a wrong turn, this is the TROLL forum, not the trolling forum. Honest mistake, happens all the time.
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Post by deviantcad on Jan 5, 2018 2:21:55 GMT
I think it important to keep balance in mind. You don't necessarily want a bomber one rounding a heavy, nor would you want KC to be a list that you feel advantaged dropping in to everything. If you're worried about an armor 20 jacks slags would be an in theme option. If you're worried about 7 of them you are probably dropping the wrong list. Strange how the slag has no animus though, must be a misprint.
Troll ranged tends to be low rat, good pow. We have a few RAT fixing options although some are probably harder then they should be to apply and a few of the models I think could be brought up to par with a +2 rng or +1 RAT tweak. What I see is two main problems with troll shooting.
1: You are paying for troll endurance and that doesn't lend itself well to alpha strike shooting. Beta strike shooting doesn't lend itself well to winning games. We have some good feats to stop shooting, but a lot of the defensive tech seems to be worked around by other shooting list and we don't have a strong way to free ourselves up vs melee list. A lot of anwser like making trolls faster or giving them more tricks like are not very trolly. Maybe if tough was changed to only stop working against melee atacks when knocked down or a drinking chronicler that could give feign death?
2: troll range with a lot of warriors is a lot of short ranged medium base models tripping over themselves. It's hard to to ranged beast with out a lot of furry managment and you would probably do in PoD anyway. Maybe if the theme let you move through and see through it would clear a lot of that up.
Some of the Cygnar trolls being available would be intresting as would another stone attachment that supported a shooting army.
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Jan 5, 2018 5:14:58 GMT
If you look at what you get for 15 points on the raiders, then compare that to 14 points of scattergunners....
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Post by cayterpius on Jan 5, 2018 7:05:39 GMT
Problem #1 - cracking ARM
a) Do nothing. If you need to crack ARM, look to your other list in the pairing. KC is not designed to crack ARM. It's designed to shred infantry.
b) Oh, hey look, it's #DESIGNSPACE. Another high POW heavy to compete with the Bomber? Rework Slag animus to be some sort of ARM debuff on his ranged weapon when it hits? Other POW buffs or ARM debuffs on beast, solo or even unit chassis so we get more new things to play with in KC? More POW 13/14 guns?Something more fun and exciting than "add a Mauler bruh"? Yes, please.
Problem #2 - stealth
a) Stone
b) Bog Trog Mist Speaker
c) Get within 5"
Everyone in this game has to deal with stealth and yes it's an obvious challange for gunlines. Use the tools you have and make the best of it, just like everyone else. I wouldn't expect a Magic Bullet solution for this one (... see what I did there?)
Problem #3 - Burrowers
You don't need to rework the entire unit or create some fancy, complicated (and expensive) support attachment. This one's simple (and remembering the burrow rule affects other people's models in the game, not just ours) - reword the rule so that the burrow marker moves at the SPD of the unit/model that is burrowing. Done.
Think about it. Burrowers actually have a chance to get into the opponents lines and mess stuff up, possibility of backstrikes to get that much needed RAT6, etc. and all before round 5. Meanwhile, your opponent knows where they will be and can either position out of range or flood the marker with bodies thus denying you a landing zone. Both parties get a challange, neither is at an obvious advantage. Fair and balanced.
Problem #4 - Highwaymen
a) RNG10
OR
b) Theme Benefits: Highwaymen gain Ambush (I actually really like this idea, talk about thematic)
Problem #5 - Dozer and Smigg
Easy, allow D&S in the KC theme. I really don't understand what would break if we had D&S for KC the same way we have Rok in SotN for all casters.
Problem #6 - Thumper/Pummeller
Advance Deploy. Either as a theme benefit or better yet, add the rule to the models.
Problem #6 - Scattergunners
a) Unyielding
OR
b) Pathfinder
OR
c) Both. (too much?)
Problem #7 - Boomhowlers
11/17 is damn expensive. RAT4 on a character unit is pathetic. SPD5 is painful. Clearly a case of power creep with new toys while the classics are left flapping in the wind.
9/15, RAT6 as a minimum fix. Pathfinder or Unyielding on top would be gravy. Make Greygore's Blunderbuss a SP? Could be more fun but then you begin stepping on the toes of the Scattergunners...
EDIT: Prey?
Did I miss anything major? I think that about covers it for what most people feel we're missing. Bushwackers ... recently got a decent attachment and with some of the above changes they can fill the role of flanking harassers. Maybe a point decrease to match the Burrowers 8/13? Or flare on the Mortar? There's a stealth fix we don't really have that would be fun in a ranged list. HEY PP, GIVE US MOAR FLARE PLZ!
Like most, I feel the KC theme was a quick "on the back of a napkin" reaction to "hey, there's no theme for the War Wagon..." but I don't think it takes much to improve it.
What bugs me is that I'm not a game designer or a competitive player (hell I only get about a game a month in at the best of times) and it took me 10 minutes to think through the above simple, easy, thematic and not at all OP changes. So what the heck are the paid staff doing?
On a semi-related side note, I've said it before and even with CID being a thing I still feel it's the right way to go - there should be a "champion" for each faction within PP. I mean Hungerford is the sole reason we have seen Dracodile and Barnabus2 and Soles is why the Grymkin exist. Does anyone in the company play/love Trolls as much as we do? At least one person should (one person that knows the Skinner already had WM...) so that they can push for the improvements that those of us who play would want and think of.
CID helps (although CID can also be a tidal wave of "give me, give me, give me" and "waah, waah, waah"), but no internal love from the company really shows when cracks like KC appear.
/rant
/my2c
Summary: Prey, Ambush, Flare, Mark the Target, Unyielding, Pathfinder, decent RNG and POW/ARM buff/debuffs are the tools gunlines need. We need more of these tools in KC/Trolls which goes to show there is plenty of design space left in the faction. Bring it PP, bring it.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jan 5, 2018 18:08:37 GMT
Improvements can be achieved in 10 minutes, but balance cannot. I am so thankful that PP doesn’t simply throw out changes on a whim. I am personally confident that these units will eventually get a CID. Storm of the North has increased my patience on that timeframe a great deal.
I do hope that there is a day when I actually want to buy a unit of scouts. Lol
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 5, 2018 18:31:23 GMT
Improvements can be achieved in 10 minutes, but balance cannot. I am so thankful that PP doesn’t simply throw out changes on a whim. I am personally confident that these units will eventually get a CID. Storm of the North has increased my patience on that timeframe a great deal. I do hope that there is a day when I actually want to buy a unit of scouts. Lol Well I've got enough stuff to run BoH and PoD lists that I like, so I don't need a KC list, but it'd be nice to have one that I felt confident in.
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