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Post by deviantcad on Jan 3, 2018 16:13:47 GMT
I have to second Mac on this. I've put highwaymen on the table a good number of times now and numbers aside they tend to dissappoint. I'm not saying they don't have a situation where they could shine, but their weakness is the same reason gang on scouts and charge of the trolls are better on paper.
NKFE are great, but same thing you either trip over yourself to set them up or pay the pyre troll tax. They difference is they are more worth the effort. The random potential to take fire damage is also a balancing factor.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 3, 2018 16:41:12 GMT
The whole theme is a bit silly, it is supposed to represent the Kriels trying to create a unified modern organised army, however it does not allow the Troll Axer or Bouncer (Trolls civilised enough to use weapons), but allows the 'anti-social' Trolls like the Swamp and Pyre Troll.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Jan 3, 2018 17:09:21 GMT
Some ideas I had for awhile Burrowers gain a 4 point CA called Pyg Burrower Officer & Ammo Bearer - Officer has Slip away order and has the ability Tactics: Adept Tunneler - When the Burrow ability is used increase the movement to 4 " and placement to 6".
- The Ammo Bearer like the Ammo Porter for the Legion Archers gives an extra shot while within so many inches of the model.
This would increase effectiveness of Burrowers slightly, giving some models 2 shots and some extra movement shenanigans with slip away and adept tunneler. Would work wonders in combo with Pyg Lookouts, Grim2, Calandra.
This idea seems like it could be partially useful. The extra shot means that you would still only be playing them with Grim2 for hus feat as RAT4 RNG4 POW14 is still pretty garbage even with 2 shots each. Also I would never pay 17 points for this. For Burrowers to see play again, I really think that they need their old rules back. The other idea I had was for the Ammo Bearer to give Flare to the unit while alive instead of a 2nd shot but go with me or a second on this. Slip away order means some Burrowers can get to the back arc of a model making them RAT 6. Add in a Lookout and now the Pygs are RAT 8. The Adept Tunneler ability also means a person has to watch out for janky 6 to 10 inch threat that would be hard to stop. While most heavily armor beasts can shrug off a pow 14 shot or two a lot of infantry can't and once you hit the realm of RAT 6 or higher suddenly burrowers are hitting at a good weight class. My memory may be foggy but Burrow before allowed them to pop up and fully activate which is something I think they are trying to get away from. They also as well had a pow 8 melee swing and point blank (which benefited from war cry) slug shot which that ability alone would help them out but both would make them a bit too good for the points. Keep in mind either idea I had for the CA (slip away w/adept tunneler & extra shot or Flare on all shots) make them a support/kill unit for 17 points.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Jan 3, 2018 18:24:36 GMT
I'm not expecting KC specifically or large swaths of the models included in it to hit CID this year just because of the other factions that need to be looked at first.
For the most part I agree that the issue is the models included in the theme not the benefits, other than the WW and sluggers they're either under performing or available in other themes. I'll make some comments on models I've actually played
Scattergunners I've made work reasonably well with Kolgrima but I'm uncertain whether that implies that they're decent or its just a statement of how deep kolgrima's toolbox really is. They're in a weird spot because while our very Cold Grandma makes them feel really good I'm hard pressed to see another warlock in our stable that makes them shine. Grim1 or Grim2? I'm also not really sure what they need to work well elsewhere. Their abilities are pretty decent so maybe just a slight point reduction or maybe gunfighter?
Bushwhackers I honestly kind of like, they don't hit that hard but with their range, rerolling missed CRA's, and being essentially unjammable they can do decent work. With someone like gunnbjorn to toss snipe on them they'll be shooting your opponents AD turn 1 if you go first or their support if you go second. I do think they're a little overpriced though.
Thumper, meh... a pow 16 gun with momentum on a 5 point package sounds cool until you realize its range 12 and charges further than it runs. At Rat 5 it needs to aim so it either needs a range boost or a Rat boost. AD also seems a reasonable route.
Pummelers are actually pretty fun to play with and have performed pretty well for me. Prior to SR17 they were felt lousy since no one was bringing infantry but now that their prey of choice is on the table they're well worth bringing IMO. These guys are part of the reason I'm all for Dozer & Smigg being included in KC (also then I could play that sweet model I bought), if you have lucky shot you're rerolling all your deviations with them which really helps deal with their randomness and can really piss your opponent off when you reroll a drift onto their stealthed solos turn 1.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 3, 2018 19:11:22 GMT
I'd love to see the highwaymen get looked at since I just got a unit of them but have no reason to use them.
And I'm inclined to agree that the biggest issue is the beast stable since the list lacks any heavy hitters outside of the kings.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 3, 2018 20:10:27 GMT
I'd love to see the highwaymen get looked at since I just got a unit of them but have no reason to use them. And I'm inclined to agree that the biggest issue is the beast stable since the list lacks any heavy hitters outside of the kings. I think people underestimate what 2 bombers can do at range to any heavy jack/beast. Sure you are not one rounding a khador heavy at range but do you really need to? Trolls have 3 other themes that can crack all the arm in the world. Kriel company shreds infantry and if the units in it get brought up to par, can potentially play a very interesting skirmishing gunline.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Jan 3, 2018 21:42:49 GMT
Having successfully played a double Bushwhackers list before, I can say they are a really solid unit. Expensive as all get out, but as they are, they're useful, if nothing else than a really long range single CRA people don't expect from Trolls. However, I have never once had Highwaymen have any meaningful impact on a game in all the times I have put them on the table. They are prone to 2 guys running at them and tying up the entire unit because they are near useless without CRA's. I think it was two karax and they couldn't pull themselves out of it to save their lives.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Jan 3, 2018 22:01:38 GMT
I played raiders for the first time last week and I just think they make scattergunners and highwaymen nearly obsolete. Scattergunners still have CLEAR! which is good but they need more armor or the ability to fire in melee or something. Highwaymen, as has been mentioned at length, just need some way to either avoid melee or be more effective while engaged. Range 8 just doesn't cut it. Maybe if they had parry or an ability to combine their shots in melee. I'm actually a little surprised we got raiders when we already have so many combined arms units(burrowers, scattergunners, highwaymen, scouts, fire-eaters, *boomhowlers). Raiders are fast, hit decently in melee, have good stats for a flank unit, and a good ranged weapon.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Jan 3, 2018 22:15:10 GMT
I would say that Grim2 Mirage somewhat solves the Highwaymens problem of being jammed (and his feat the range problem), but otherwise agree that they underperform a lot. They might just need a solid UA.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Jan 4, 2018 5:41:59 GMT
I would say that Grim2 Mirage somewhat solves the Highwaymens problem of being jammed (and his feat the range problem), but otherwise agree that they underperform a lot. They might just need a solid UA. Totally agree, that they need CA that helps them to unjam themselves, because they have to problems: they have so short range, that they can shoot only couple of enemy models before they die and they won't hit enemy infantry that hits them. CRA on melee? And maybe reposition (although I don't see how musician would fit their fluff. Or something that helps them surviving, like prowl.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jan 4, 2018 6:33:12 GMT
KC might be fine if _________.
Hypothesis: To fix the competitiveness of the KC theme an adjustment/option to competently destroy opposing multiple high ARM targets must be included (non-Garg)...
If Primal came on a LIGHT Trollblood warbeast with a ranged attack. Provides a to-hit/damage buff for ranged warbeasts. AND/OR Rok allowed in ANY KC army (a la Mulg for POD)
Side note: Dozer & Smig should allowed in KC just because. That cool a model should be incentivized to be shown off more often.
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Post by greenjello on Jan 4, 2018 14:53:10 GMT
I agree with the comments about Dozer and Smig, I just figured they were already in the theme.
Suprised the Pyg Lookouts aren't getting more comments. Having a general +2 RAT would fix a lot of problems for a lot of our ranged units.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 4, 2018 15:27:16 GMT
I agree with the comments about Dozer and Smig, I just figured they were already in the theme. Suprised the Pyg Lookouts aren't getting more comments. Having a general +2 RAT would fix a lot of problems for a lot of our ranged units. They don't do much to excite me. Yes, +2 RAT is nice but they're a fragile unit that needs to be dangerously close to the target to give the bonus, and they don't have much offensive power of their own. Trolls already have too many support units. We need more heavy hitters.
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Post by greenjello on Jan 4, 2018 16:46:33 GMT
Yes, +2 RAT is nice but they're a fragile unit that needs to be dangerously close to the target to give the bonus, and they don't have much offensive power of their own. You need one model in the unit within 5" of the target, and within 7" of the leader (or you can just run the leader into range), so they don't need to be dangerously close. Ambush also gives them the option of making the decision difficult for the opposing player, forcing him to move backwards to deal with the marking unit or forwards to deal with the unit with some punch. RAT4 isn't great, but Ambush makes it easier to get them into the back arc, and is effectively RAT6 in a lot of cases, since they can shoot the model they're marking.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Jan 4, 2018 17:31:53 GMT
The issue for me isn't that I think they're bad but its more support bloat on trolls. Unless they run after they ambush they're only marking models 14" from the board edge and if they do run you're spending 7 points minimum to get a couple mark targets.
I can see taking them in KC where I'm less inclined to take the stone (although stealth removal is a pretty big deal still) but I'm not sure how they'll do. I'm planning to grab some once they come out to give them a try but I suspect to be underwhelmed.
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