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Post by onijet01 on Dec 31, 2017 16:14:49 GMT
Hello all.
This topic was posted over in the Priviteer Press owned forum. Its a interesting topic and I felt it needed to be brought up.
The original topic was as observation about a negetive relationship between offensive scores and defensive scores.
The original poster asked "is a MAT creep ruining the game?" They sited how many currently played models were MAT 7, or had gang/prey to boost them to MAT 8.
Continuing the poster sighted how DEF values have remained unchanged on most models. Sighting Circle Oroboros Stalker Warbeasts at DEF 14. They are easily hit by most model that see play and with lower armor ingured by weaker attacks.
This topic has gotten me thinking. And in light of what factions I primarily play i wanted to ajust the question the player posted.
Is the rise of effective offensive stats MAT/RAT/FOC/SPELLCASTING actually harmefull to the game as a whole?
In factions with Multi-Wound models the raise of offensive stats does play a little into making the game more competitive. But into a faction who have minimul multi-wound models this increase can become negitive.
In factions that lack a large Multi-wound pool of models, the increase in offensive stats means those factions have to answer with defensive options. Defence, Armor, or speed are about the only way single wound armies can battle higher offensive armies.
Now i am not complaining but i wanted to bring up the topic for discussion.
I play Trollkin, Retribution, and Cryx. So i understand some of the complaint.
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Post by chillychinaman on Dec 31, 2017 16:58:14 GMT
Oustide of Trolls and soon to be Khador, I think multi-wound models aside from cavalry are not meta. I think the reason is the combination of low ARM and low boxes.
In addition, with the coming of Mk3, there were a number of models that increased in MAT while, as far as I remember, few increased in DEF.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 31, 2017 18:06:41 GMT
Quite a few dropped in Def.
Iron Fangs became Def12, kayazy became def 13, Nyss became def 14.
Things are much easier to hit these days.
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Post by Gaston on Dec 31, 2017 19:18:37 GMT
Quite a lot of the game is Mat 6, and Def 14 is not an auto hit by any means.
Remember that one time that Choir lost the universal +2 to hit?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396 
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Post by Haight on Dec 31, 2017 19:29:04 GMT
I think things are typically a little easier to hit / damage in MK3 than MK2 (not universally by any stretch, skews and outliers are still very much a thing in the game). I also don't think its "severe" or even bad for the game : making a game that emphasizes a greater degree of success in hitting and killing your opponents stuff emphasizes a more aggressive, and generally, faster game. I think these things are good, especially given you can still make a list that can tank face and dole damage too if you want to.
Regarding multi-wound infantry / cav ... my impression this edition is that their stock went down in most cases pretty significantly. There's still some that are good to great, but its the exception now rather than the relative norm like most were in MK2 (again, there's exceptions to everything, in both editions, but gererally speaking i think the stock of most multi-wound infantry and cav in MK2 was much higher than it is now in MK3).
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Dec 31, 2017 22:30:03 GMT
Making things easier to hit and/or damage makes games take less time.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Dec 31, 2017 22:52:09 GMT
Making things (infantry) easier to hit requires players to sacrifice models to protect more important offensive models. This is good.
In MK2 positioning very high defense CHEAP 30-40mm infantry models in the best places, engaging/interfering with charge lanes etc. made 50mm warjack fielding, in many, many cases a BAD strategic choice.
The change to MK3 has definitively changed that (except IMO, for my personal ease of use of PoM warjacks). Easier to hit/kill infantry models, generally has led to greater importance of warjacks/warbeasts.
Recur strategies, or survival strategies for multi-wound 'heavy' infantry have been part of CID to balance infantry vs warjacks/warbeasts, and the themes/casters available.
Balance may not be yet correct for some Cavalry units...
MK3 has made it much more possible for many more Factions/warcasters to play 'jack-heavy or 'beast-heavy and have success. This IMHO is a great change in MK3.
(I play all factions except Grymkin, so each CID since MK3 inception is like being gifted 'new' models monthly! Daunting to keep up with, but also exciting and fun!)
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Post by killroundears on Dec 31, 2017 23:37:51 GMT
Quite a lot of the game is Mat 6, and Def 14 is not an auto hit by any means. Remember that one time that Choir lost the universal +2 to hit? followed by a hand of vengeance theme benefit that gives back +2 to hit along with +2 damage in melee in what is probably PoMs best theme overall. the game is getting more and more vet leader too, and some vet leader thats basically a whole army buff (hooch hauler) |
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Post by Gaston on Dec 31, 2017 23:43:28 GMT
Quite a lot of the game is Mat 6, and Def 14 is not an auto hit by any means. Remember that one time that Choir lost the universal +2 to hit? followed by a hand of vengeance theme benefit that gives back +2 to hit along with +2 damage in melee in what is probably PoMs best theme overall. the game is getting more and more vet leader too, and some vet leader thats basically a whole army buff (hooch hauler) Absolutely, albeit 18 months into Mk3. And I do approve of buffs like that having a cost, be it in points or deaths. The second is even better, as it then involves list building, strategy, and positioning. |
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Post by gobber on Jan 1, 2018 0:45:12 GMT
PP definitely is aware of the heavy infantry problems. Recent CID changes to Champs/Longriders, Slaughter Fleet, Gators, etc have made improvements in that area. Most of the CID cycles coming up in the first half of the year are heavy infantry themes (Ogrun, MOW, Exemplars, Tharn) so I'd bet on their stock rising soon...
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 1, 2018 3:05:35 GMT
PP definitely is aware of the heavy infantry problems. Recent CID changes to Champs/Longriders, Slaughter Fleet, Gators, etc have made improvements in that area. Most of the CID cycles coming up in the first half of the year are heavy infantry themes (Ogrun, MOW, Exemplars, Tharn) so I'd bet on their stock rising soon... Except they refused to “fix” gator possy. Lots of posts and reports in CiD asking for an accuracy buff or a further points reduction and possy remained largely unchanged. I would not hold out on every medium based unit getting the same treatment as champs or black ogrun. |
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Post by borderprince on Jan 1, 2018 4:52:47 GMT
Except they refused to “fix” gator possy. Lots of posts and reports in CiD asking for an accuracy buff or a further points reduction and possy remained largely unchanged. Gatormen Posse aren't terrible - there are minion casters who still want them, mainly in Blindwater theme (as WWFF is beast-centric). And merc/minion models are going to be the trickier ones to balance. PP couldn't easily make Gatormen much better/cheaper without going back to the Mk2 problem of them outshining the faction options. That's a particular issue when Gatormen entered CID before the faction models with which they compete. So I wouldn't read too much into it. |
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Post by gobber on Jan 1, 2018 5:51:12 GMT
And yet Posse came out of CID slightly cheaper on the max unit and more accurate against nonliving models. They took some small steps to buff them upwards (they're not that far behind the curve) in accordance with community requests even if they didn't satisfy everyone.
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Post by Gaston on Jan 1, 2018 6:03:40 GMT
GMP have had their points reduced twice in Mk3 now.
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Post by killroundears on Jan 1, 2018 8:54:31 GMT
my real problem with gatorman posse is they were absolutely killed for non gators. i used to love playing with gatorman posse in skorne.
I'm not asking for "so good they outshine faction options" (Mind you, anything outshines Incindiarii and Arcuarii), i'm just asking they be playable. But the fact they are unbuffable due to the FF changes and nerfed with 5 boxes etc just means they sit on my shelf forever
At least they fixed croaks, i can see myself using croaks again.
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