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Post by borderprince on Jan 1, 2018 11:22:18 GMT
I feel that themes have really hurt character jacks, confining them to their owning casters (or just themes that allow them). Some of them might be OK because they are good enough and their casters are popular enough (Ruin, Dynamo), but others are suffering. I can't imagine PP is selling too many Torch, Beast, or Drago kits right now. ... You know, that gets me thinking: would it be fair for character jacks to be cheaper than they should be "in a vacuum"? Since they are only feasible these days with their owning casters (you give up so much going out of theme) that them being cheap is kinda like their caster having more warjack points? What I'm saying is, Torch being 16 or even 14 points makes him a solid pick with Strakhov, but he still wouldn't be used anywhere else really, and it's not quite unbalanced since it's just part of the Strakhov package? It's kinda like Scrapjack, you know? Ruin at 17 points is great, but since he only gets taken with Butcher it's less that he's cheap and more that Butcher has X number of warjack points to spend (where X is the number on his card -17). Just, you know, an idle though. Well some of the character jacks have popular casters, but aren't themselves good enough: Torch and Drago both fall into that category, and Beast may do so (Sorcha's always hovering around popular, I think, even if she doesn't make it into the "Top X" lists). So it isn't the theme issue that takes them out of the game, but simply their design Reducing character jack points could work, but you might have to change warjack points to accommodate it (otherwise particular casters get an unusually cheap jack), which might be difficult - what if people want to play Vlad1/2/3 but don't want Drago? They can't buy as many other jacks. If you go down that route it's easier to just go the Old Witch1 route and make the jack part of the caster selection and dramatically reduce warjack points. But that reduces flexibility.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 1, 2018 11:40:44 GMT
Reducing character jack points could work, but you might have to change warjack points to accommodate it (otherwise particular casters get an unusually cheap jack), which might be difficult - what if people want to play Vlad1/2/3 but don't want Drago? They can't buy as many other jacks. If you go down that route it's easier to just go the Old Witch1 route and make the jack part of the caster selection and dramatically reduce warjack points. But that reduces flexibility. True. I guess character jacks are always just going to be a bit niche in thememachine unless they are amazing (i.e. Ruin). Strakhov might be a bit of a special case too, since he kinda did a complete 180 between iterations: part 1 mainly just cares for his battlegroup, while part deux does almost nothing for warjacks that isn't better on a unit.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 1, 2018 13:17:14 GMT
I also agree with the themes and character jacks For example, I don't think I could ever take behemoth outside of Jaws of the Wolf. Not only do you lose the free theme point for being out of theme, but you might as well put those free points on top of behemoth as well. You could probably give the majority of character jacks the companion rule, and nothing would change.
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Post by auraco on Jan 1, 2018 13:26:44 GMT
I don't get why Torch and the Decimator lost 1 PS in melee in the edition change especially considering that they were both considered pretty bad by MK2 standard. Torch would be fairly easy to fix, bring his PS back to 18 and make him 16 points. Because at the moment he is way too pillowfisted for a very expansive jack. Pretty much our only character jack attached to a caster that doesn't feel way overpriced is Ruin and I think Ruin is currently perfectly costed.
This used to be a Harkevich thread so we could mention Black Ivan, I really don't get why the thing is so expansive... I mean gun taxe sure, but 5 pts over a regular destroyer? Especially when the destroyer is already a niche model. Yeah he is the Caine of Khador jack with Rat 5 but rat 5 is meh by the game's standard.
Pretty much every CID added character jacks to existing theme forces, I fully expect the same thing to happen to us. Not sure which jack will end up in Armored Korps, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ruin ends up being a candidate for Wolves of Winter and Beast 09 for WGK.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 1, 2018 14:37:56 GMT
I don't get why Torch and the Decimator lost 1 PS in melee in the edition change especially considering that they were both considered pretty bad by MK2 standard. This. I always defended Torch and the Decimator in MkII because at least they were accurate beatsticks (back when our jack's MAT was 6). Now... I can't. I want to, but I can't. This used to be a Harkevich thread so we could mention Black Ivan, I really don't get why the thing is so exp ensive... I mean gun taxe sure, but 5 pts over a regular destroyer? Especially when the destroyer is already a niche model. Yeah he is the Caine of Khador jack with Rat 5 but rat 5 is meh by the game's standard. When the Destoyer was 16 points, Black Ivan at 19 was not worth it. When the Destroyer dropped to 14... well, a Destroyer AND Andrei are +2 SPD, +3 P&S, charge for free and are completely independent of the caster's focus, for a point less. Black Ivan is just so sad compared to what he was in MkII. He at least used to have the Def 12 Dodge trick, but now he's lost even that. Sorry, I'm trying not to derail this thread any further, I just can't seem to help myself.
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Post by Cirga on Jan 2, 2018 0:37:35 GMT
I think Harkevich is still plenty competitive in SR17 with a melee jack spam. Reposition 3 on all your jacks does wonders for letting you keep everything contested. His feat can be pretty nuts too. Usually you just use it defensively to absorb the alpha, which it does like a champ, a wall of arm 23, 34 box khador jacks can absorb quite a lot of abuse and still be on their feet. If you manage to get the alpha then it's often absolutely back breaking for your opponent.
As has been mentioned kodiaks are gold with Hark. They can trample 9 inches up, throw down clouds, and then reposition behind them, and thanks to SR17 you can usually combine them with LOS blocking terrain to cover a fairly large area.
I haven't played in a couple months due to being busy, but the following list was working quite well for me.
War Room Army
Khador - Hark JAWS v2
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
GENERATED : 01/01/2018 19:16:29 BUILD ID : 2059.17-12-30
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Post by steeltitan on Jan 2, 2018 11:45:45 GMT
Thats my alternative Hark list that i never got to try out, my main list being the standard Behemoth one.
I like the idea of pushing the Jack spam to the max by adding that 8th jack, at the expense of big B.
What have your experiences been with that list, especially versus the Behemoth version?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 2, 2018 12:56:20 GMT
Harkevich is baller.
Just ignore Broadside completely, take him in Jaws with 2 units of Eliminators for scoring circular zones, you get a free Yuri and 2 Forge Seers for scoring flags, then just pad out with Marauders, maybe a Devastator to be extra obnoxious at contesting, or a Kodiak to provide a cloud for him to hide behind. Don't bother marshalling anything as it cannot benefit from Mobility, Repo 3 or Jumpstart.
With Mobility and Repo 3 he can get his jacks 12" up the board turn 1 (Ignoring Forests and rough terrain), then just overwhelm the enemy with your armour, boxes and 10 friggin point Marauders
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Post by Cirga on Jan 2, 2018 15:43:47 GMT
Thats my alternative Hark list that i never got to try out, my main list being the standard Behemoth one. I like the idea of pushing the Jack spam to the max by adding that 8th jack, at the expense of big B. What have your experiences been with that list, especially versus the Behemoth version? Behemoth is always nice, but ultimately my list is an arm/box skew and and going with the 2nd destroyer gets me an extra 32 boxes. I feel like having that 8th jack can really be the tipping point on whether or not some lists can handle all those boxes. It Also gives me an additional model I can use to keep things contested or for Hark to hug for Iron Sentinel. Behemoth does have a higher offensive output, especially if you can get him into melee with something, but he also has a giant target on his head and you can be sure your opponent is going to avoid putting anything too important in charge range of him. The destroyers on the other hand are more likely to be left alone which can cost your opponent as the destroyers are no slouches in melee. With the crush drive they have 2 blessed pow 19 initials with crit decap + one or two focus from the seers for charging/buying attacks. Having a second jack with the magic/blessed weapons can be very useful in some situations, such as having to deal with incorporeal models on opposite flanks. I have thought about dropping a kodiak, 2 juggernauts, and the 2 destroyers for 4 marauders and Behemoth. I haven't tested it yet though as I am one marauder short, even with borrowing one from a friend, and I'm getting so few games in at the moment that I prefer to play with lists I can actually field at my local steam rollers. I'd hate to lose the 3rd kodiak, vent steam is just so good, but having the 4 combo smites could be well worth it. You could even marshal one of the marauders If you're worried about things like AS stormwall or Roots Woldwrath.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jan 2, 2018 17:00:15 GMT
Man, I've been busy, and haven't had time to really come on here!
You want to play hark? Totally play him. he's super fun, a buffing caster for our jacks. I like him with shooters, because I do like broadsides and feat (I know it's not super accurate, but damn if it's not fun hitting everything with blast templates.) Try taking him in winterguard theme, with a lot of small units like weapon crews, and plenty of jacks. Advance deploy mobility jacks are neat!
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