|
Post by steeltitan on Dec 30, 2017 10:26:47 GMT
Uhhhhhhh ok, guess i have to read Strakhovs card Ok...i should appreciate Overrun because Morty2 in MK2...ouch... I cant see myself buying Torch though...still, ill give it a go.
|
|
|
Post by chaingun on Dec 30, 2017 13:05:07 GMT
Well, if the topic changed to "jack casters", my caster is Butcher 1. You survive at whatever your opponent threw at you and then Full Throttle (+ Blood Frenzy) their ass to Wingdom come.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 30, 2017 16:44:29 GMT
To be honest I don't think Torch sees as much play with Strakhov as you might expect him to; many people prefer the Grolar for the same cost as his much higher volume of attacks is better at eating through transfers (unless the opponent's caster/lock is immune to knockdown). Also the Grolar hits harder.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Dec 30, 2017 17:21:53 GMT
Grolar hits harder and has native pathfinder, it works way better with overrun, the grolar is simply better for Strakhov1 than Torch in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by welshhoppo on Dec 30, 2017 23:19:13 GMT
And he looks better too.
But I like Strakhov because he is fun. And because he's the best caster in Khador (according to me.)
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Dec 31, 2017 5:03:13 GMT
Grolar hits harder and has native pathfinder, it works way better with overrun, the grolar is simply better for Strakhov1 than Torch in my opinion. Why not both? They're both good assassination jacks under Strakhov1. Adding Torch to a Grolar gives some stealth removal (especially nice if your list also includes Behemoth) and additional movement options. And having two good assassins is much better than one for the feat - it makes it harder to avoid the assassination (both by positioning or targeting the key jack).
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 31, 2017 8:05:39 GMT
Because Steeltitan specifically said he doesn't see himself buying Torch. As much as I love Torch, he's not exactly the best bang for your buck in real-world money, what with themes and what-not. BTW are people running Torch with Strak2?
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Dec 31, 2017 15:12:29 GMT
Grolar hits harder and has native pathfinder, it works way better with overrun, the grolar is simply better for Strakhov1 than Torch in my opinion. Why not both? They're both good assassination jacks under Strakhov1. Adding Torch to a Grolar gives some stealth removal (especially nice if your list also includes Behemoth) and additional movement options. And having two good assassins is much better than one for the feat - it makes it harder to avoid the assassination (both by positioning or targeting the key jack). It depends on what you want to do with the list, if assassination is your only goal then go for torch and the grolar, but I've downgraded torch in my list to a juggernaut to get a widowmaker marksman and a gobber thinker, the extra hitting power of the juggernaut gives me more scenario and attrition power, so do the marksman and the thinker. I like the grolar as an assassination tool if the occasion presents itself, but I won't go out of my way to make it happen if I can win on scenario. Torch AND a grolar end up making for a very expansive package. The grolar hits hard enough to kill heavies on its own, Torch is not quite there, the difference between pow 17 and 18 is pretty much the breaking point between hard hitting and not.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Dec 31, 2017 15:15:37 GMT
BTW are people running Torch with Strak2? No. I run Strakhov2 in legion of steel with minimum jacks, so a maraudeur and a juggernaut to allow more iron fang stuff, Torch is too expansive and doesn't bring enough to the list and doesn't fit well with Strakhov2's odd 22 jack pts. It's also fairly pillow fisted for the list and Strakhov2's damage buff is just weird to use and not very good on jacks.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Dec 31, 2017 16:54:47 GMT
It depends on what you want to do with the list, if assassination is your only goal then go for torch and the grolar, but I've downgraded torch in my list to a juggernaut to get a widowmaker marksman and a gobber thinker, the extra hitting power of the juggernaut gives me more scenario and attrition power, so do the marksman and the thinker. I like the grolar as an assassination tool if the occasion presents itself, but I won't go out of my way to make it happen if I can win on scenario. Torch AND a grolar end up making for a very expansive package. The grolar hits hard enough to kill heavies on its own, Torch is not quite there, the difference between pow 17 and 18 is pretty much the breaking point between hard hitting and not. Interesting, although my Strakhov1 list already has both the Marksman and the Tinker, together with Torch and a Grolar. I think the bigger issue is that I struggle with Strakhov1 as a caster who works well in attrition, at least compared to several other Khador casters who can also run several jacks well. Assassination seems to be his strongest suit, probably why he's also not my favourite caster. I much prefer attrition and scenario. As for Torch with Strakhov2 - his strongest builds at present seem to be Legion of Steel, and that theme doesn't benefit from one of Torch's features (that probably contributes significantly to his high cost): stealth removal.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jan 1, 2018 3:56:05 GMT
borderprince, how many jacks do you have in your list? Strakhov1 won't do attrition like say karchev with 7 or 8 jacks, that's for sure, but he will do it better than most, my list has 6 jacks I find that with a Grolar and Torch you probably need to cut a jack from the list and while it helps with the assassination it will be worst for your attrition potential. I like the assassination option, I just don't like to build my entire plan around it, I usually only go for it if I'm behind, considering Strakhov's assassination it's been working out well for me, but a savy opponent will usually be careful not to fall to it. Hence why I prefer a more attrition and scenario build. With all the mobility Strakhov brings to the table he has a pretty solid scenario game with the right list. I agree with your take on Torch with Strakhov2. He cost too much for not enough in return especially in a legion of steel list. At the moment I have no idea how else to run Strakhov2, he is terrible a running jacks and prefer a melee force and his game rely on upkeep, so Jaws, WGK and Wolves of winter are pretty much out right off the bat, that leaves him with Legion of Steel, and maybe Armored Korps, once the CID fixes the MoW.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jan 1, 2018 4:56:37 GMT
borderprince , how many jacks do you have in your list? Strakhov1 won't do attrition like say karchev with 7 or 8 jacks, that's for sure, but he will do it better than most, my list has 6 jacks I find that with a Grolar and Torch you probably need to cut a jack from the list and while it helps with the assassination it will be worst for your attrition potential. I like the assassination option, I just don't like to build my entire plan around it, I usually only go for it if I'm behind, considering Strakhov's assassination it's been working out well for me, but a savy opponent will usually be careful not to fall to it. Hence why I prefer a more attrition and scenario build. With all the mobility Strakhov brings to the table he has a pretty solid scenario game with the right list. 5 jacks: Behemoth, Torch, Grolar, Juggernaut and Marauder. Double Eliminators, full Manhunter package and then a sprinkling of solos. More than 5 jacks tends to mean Karchev for me. 5 + Battle Engine is Vlad1 with WGK. I just find both of those run the large number of high ARM models better. If I want that many jacks I need something that buffs their offensive power more than Superiority alone. Probably a playstyle thing.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 1, 2018 5:16:06 GMT
It's a bit of shame then that Torch doesn't really bring what Strakhov 2 wants, and is debatable at best with Strak 1 - and of course being a character jack he's currently never going to be used outside of those two casters because themes. I mean, I'm pretty sure Ruin works great with all incarnations of the Butcher.
|
|
|
Post by lovehugs on Jan 1, 2018 6:55:47 GMT
It's a bit of shame then that Torch doesn't really bring what Strakhov 2 wants, and is debatable at best with Strak 1 - and of course being a character jack he's currently never going to be used outside of those two casters because themes. I mean, I'm pretty sure Ruin works great with all incarnations of the Butcher. Ruin is just a great Jack all round. Cheap-ish and self sufficient. I'd bring him with all casters if I could.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 1, 2018 7:39:49 GMT
Ruin is just a great Jack all round. Cheap-ish and self sufficient. I'd bring him with all casters if I could. I feel that themes have really hurt character jacks, confining them to their owning casters (or just themes that allow them). Some of them might be OK because they are good enough and their casters are popular enough (Ruin, Dynamo), but others are suffering. I can't imagine PP is selling too many Torch, Beast, or Drago kits right now. I've said it before, but I really think the kit Strakhov wants in a jack is split between Torch and the Spriggan (Bulldoze, Reach), and now the Grolar (volume of attacks, fulltime pathfinder - as I recall Torch actually used to get Pathfinder for the entire activation once he charged, but now it's only for the charge?). I don't want to completely derail the thread with a "how to fix Torch" discussion because that's the sort of thing that people can spend twenty pages on without coming to a consensus, I just think that it's a relevant point right now that he doesn't seem to have a solid place in the game at the moment. You know, that gets me thinking: would it be fair for character jacks to be cheaper than they should be "in a vacuum"? Since they are only feasible these days with their owning casters (you give up so much going out of theme) that them being cheap is kinda like their caster having more warjack points? What I'm saying is, Torch being 16 or even 14 points makes him a solid pick with Strakhov, but he still wouldn't be used anywhere else really, and it's not quite unbalanced since it's just part of the Strakhov package? It's kinda like Scrapjack, you know? Ruin at 17 points is great, but since he only gets taken with Butcher it's less that he's cheap and more that Butcher has X number of warjack points to spend (where X is the number on his card -17). Just, you know, an idle though.
|
|