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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jan 1, 2018 5:53:34 GMT
People be like: "Ragman can't get down the table." HE THREATS THIRTEEN INCHES! Good god... Protip: 13" *isn't very long in the game of Warmachine* Ragman is great when you are planning on fighting semi defensively such as Haley 3 Trenchers, but he can get picked off very easily in a lot of Kraye lists. The Falk suggestion is cool, but he only threats 14".
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 1, 2018 21:09:22 GMT
People be like: "Ragman can't get down the table." HE THREATS THIRTEEN INCHES! Good god... Protip: 13" *isn't very long in the game of Warmachine* Ragman is great when you are planning on fighting semi defensively such as Haley 3 Trenchers, but he can get picked off very easily in a lot of Kraye lists. The Falk suggestion is cool, but he only threats 14". 13" is pretty damn far. The thing is you gotta have a large base Reach model to do it. The minute the you use a small based model with 1" reach it goes way down. Like, use Stormblades? It's an 11" threat. Optimally the Stormclad or Firefly are best to proc it. But, you know, I disagree that 13" isn't very far.
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Post by pvtjoker on Jan 2, 2018 0:24:54 GMT
Could this not turn into another thread of Octavius and Snarlyyow Female Doging at each other about who is smarter. It would be absolutely super if we could avoid that.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jan 2, 2018 3:23:48 GMT
Could this not turn into another thread of Octavius and Snarlyyow Female Doging at each other about who is smarter. It would be absolutely super if we could avoid that. We haven't said anything that is off topic. If we could have less whining about nothing that would be great
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Post by potato on Jan 2, 2018 13:39:55 GMT
Both Ragman and Falk can be protected in the following ways: -LOS blocking terrain and other defensive bonuses -Cloud Walls (not exclusive to Haley3, although obviously she does it best) -Force Field -Foxhole -Shield Guard / Sac Pawn -Prowl for Falk
With Gibbs, Ragman threats considerably more than 13" from where he began his activation. Falk can also Gunfighter charge to extend his spray range (as long as he ends his charge engaging his target, of course). That said, even 13-14" is fine, considering we're taking A+H for twelve points and their application threat is only 2" further while being much harder to pull off in certain situations (Spell/Sacred Ward, Arcane Vortex, Stealth, etc.). One can of course also apply movement buffs like TK/TA/Siege2's feat in the mix when applicable.
Of course, the best way to ensure you can pull your damage buffs off is to save them for the second or third wave. Ragman's application threat is good because it lets you hang him back in your deployment zone if necessary so that he can then aid the counterpunch on turn 3 onwards. The same goes for Falk - he's way better sitting back waiting for the chaff to be obliterated so that he can get work done in the mid-late game. The notable exception is Siege1, because Ragman + Falk in a foxhole is very hard to dislodge as long as you avoid sprays + eleaps.
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Post by pvtjoker on Jan 3, 2018 6:00:32 GMT
I played two games tonight where Falk sprayed a target that allowed an Arcane Reinforced Defender to finish a wounded Dracodile and a full Nightmare in melee that would have survived without it. In both instances Falk came from the back row and Ragman could have basically done the same thing, except that I needed Falk to round out theme points for another free model. I want to try squeezing both Falk and Ragman in and see what that does, but I'm still feeling out the whole Tempest theme in general.
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Post by potato on Jan 3, 2018 13:18:54 GMT
Having both means you can either have one on either flank, or be aggressive with Falk and keep Ragman in reserve. I always take both when I play Sons
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 3, 2018 14:11:08 GMT
Having both means you can either have one on either flank, or be aggressive with Falk and keep Ragman in reserve. I always take both when I play Sons Gotta love those Boosted Weaponmaster pow 14s from the Gun Mages, and people claim Sons has a problem cracking armour...
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Post by potato on Jan 3, 2018 15:15:59 GMT
Having both means you can either have one on either flank, or be aggressive with Falk and keep Ragman in reserve. I always take both when I play Sons Gotta love those Boosted Weaponmaster pow 14s from the Gun Mages, and people claim Sons has a problem cracking armour... I have been having a corking good time with Siege1 in Sons. My personal best is killing Eye of Truth, a Reckoner and Revelator in a single turn - this included Ryan putting both of her Pow 14 shots into the Reckoner, one at 4D6 + 4 and the other at 4D6 - 5; 27 damage on average
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 3, 2018 16:13:49 GMT
Gotta love those Boosted Weaponmaster pow 14s from the Gun Mages, and people claim Sons has a problem cracking armour... I have been having a corking good time with Siege1 in Sons. My personal best is killing Eye of Truth, a Reckoner and Revelator in a single turn - this included Ryan putting both of her Pow 14 shots into the Reckoner, one at 4D6 + 4 and the other at 4D6 - 5; 27 damage on average Yeah. I can totally see that. My only worry with it is it depends on too many very squishy models. But I did play Sons recently and Thunderbolt seemed stronger than I remember. I don't know if it's because I hadn't used it as a strong scenario ability in MKii, or had forgotten, or if it's simply stronger in SR2017. I do agree it can crack armor. I've debated playing Haley1 in Sons. Siege1 also seems solid. If I have any real issue it's that Haley3 gravediggers is super strong and I think we need an off list that is less dependant on ranged attacks. Lots of anti-gunline tech out there. Maybe it's not a massive deal if there's enough guns. I dunno. Have you played two gunlins in SR2017?
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Post by potato on Jan 3, 2018 16:37:18 GMT
I have been having a corking good time with Siege1 in Sons. My personal best is killing Eye of Truth, a Reckoner and Revelator in a single turn - this included Ryan putting both of her Pow 14 shots into the Reckoner, one at 4D6 + 4 and the other at 4D6 - 5; 27 damage on average Yeah. I can totally see that. My only worry with it is it depends on too many very squishy models. But I did play Sons recently and Thunderbolt seemed stronger than I remember. I don't know if it's because I hadn't used it as a strong scenario ability in MKii, or had forgotten, or if it's simply stronger in SR2017. I do agree it can crack armor. I've debated playing Haley1 in Sons. Siege1 also seems solid. If I have any real issue it's that Haley3 gravediggers is super strong and I think we need an off list that is less dependant on ranged attacks. Lots of anti-gunline tech out there. Maybe it's not a massive deal if there's enough guns. I dunno. Have you played two gunlins in SR2017? I'm certainly not running, say, Sloan and Siege1 together But Grave Diggers is versatile enough that you can run a melee-centric army that also happens to be running 40 guns. Therefore it's mostly been Siege1 Sons and Siege2 GD for me. Between Triumph, Trencher Infantry CRAs and Express Teams the list puts out enough accurate shots to even chew through a Madrak1 champ brick. It also runs multiple units that start at P+S 14 in melee and can all the way up to 18 if the stars align.
I do agree that running two dedicated gunlines is a risky proposition though. For example our most popular ATC pair is Haley3/Nemo3 and while I think that works in the team format, I'd be hard pressed to take it in a normal Steamroller.
I've certainly been giving Haley3 her fair shake as well and can't deny that she is our strongest scenario caster. It's a good time to be playing Cygnar
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 3, 2018 16:44:58 GMT
Yeah. I can totally see that. My only worry with it is it depends on too many very squishy models. But I did play Sons recently and Thunderbolt seemed stronger than I remember. I don't know if it's because I hadn't used it as a strong scenario ability in MKii, or had forgotten, or if it's simply stronger in SR2017. I do agree it can crack armor. I've debated playing Haley1 in Sons. Siege1 also seems solid. If I have any real issue it's that Haley3 gravediggers is super strong and I think we need an off list that is less dependant on ranged attacks. Lots of anti-gunline tech out there. Maybe it's not a massive deal if there's enough guns. I dunno. Have you played two gunlins in SR2017? I'm certainly not running, say, Sloan and Siege1 together But Grave Diggers is versatile enough that you can run a melee-centric army that also happens to be running 40 guns. Therefore it's mostly been Siege1 Sons and Siege2 GD for me. Between Triumph, Trencher Infantry CRAs and Express Teams the list puts out enough accurate shots to even chew through a Madrak1 champ brick. It also runs multiple units that start at P+S 14 in melee and can all the way up to 18 if the stars align.
I do agree that running two dedicated gunlines is a risky proposition though. For example our most popular ATC pair is Haley3/Nemo3 and while I think that works in the team format, I'd be hard pressed to take it in a normal Steamroller.
I've certainly been giving Haley3 her fair shake as well and can't deny that she is our strongest scenario caster. It's a good time to be playing Cygnar
That's my issue with Haley3/Nemo3 as well. What do you play into the mirror or into Convergence? Those matchups seem very problematic for the pair. Convergence gives Nemo3 plenty of problems with shieldguards everywhere so you have to depend on leaps to kill the TEP or prime axiom? Seems bad. Into the mirror Nemo3 might actually be okay depending on the pair but if there's a colossal you're basically hosed. You drop Haley3 into the mirror and it seems like Sloan or Caine3 are just a nightmare for Haley3 while Nemo3 can't play into a lot of Sloan builds and Nemo3's Heavies just die before they ever get there. I think right now Haley3/Stryker1 looks solid.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 3, 2018 16:50:59 GMT
snarlyyow I agree that Sons and Gravediggers is probably not a very good pair as it is too weak into anti-gunline stuff. I have been playing Caine 1 Sons and Haley 3 Storm Division. My Storm Division list does have plenty of guns, but it can play as a more melee oriented list if needed. I am staying away from Haley 3 Gravediggers at the moment, partly because I am still painting everything (#playitpainted) and partly because we play 50 minute deathclock tournaments, and Haley 3 Gravediggers is a invitation to clock yourself, and I don't play frequently enough to grind out the sheer number of games needed to get quick enough with the list
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 3, 2018 16:57:06 GMT
snarlyyow I agree that Sons and Gravediggers is probably not a very good pair as it is too weak into anti-gunline stuff. I have been playing Caine 1 Sons and Haley 3 Storm Division. My Storm Division list does have plenty of guns, but it can play as a more melee oriented list if needed. I am staying away from Haley 3 Gravediggers at the moment, partly because I am still painting everything (#playitpainted) and partly because we play 50 minute deathclock tournaments, and Haley 3 Gravediggers is a invitation to clock yourself, and I don't play frequently enough to grind out the sheer number of games needed to get quick enough with the list The clock is definetly Haley's enemy. It's never been an issue for me, if anything I play too fast and loose. But with Haley3 I find myself taking a 20+ minute turn 2 which is wwwaaayyy too long. It's why I have rangers in the list now.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 3, 2018 16:59:08 GMT
snarlyyow I agree that Sons and Gravediggers is probably not a very good pair as it is too weak into anti-gunline stuff. I have been playing Caine 1 Sons and Haley 3 Storm Division. My Storm Division list does have plenty of guns, but it can play as a more melee oriented list if needed. I am staying away from Haley 3 Gravediggers at the moment, partly because I am still painting everything (#playitpainted) and partly because we play 50 minute deathclock tournaments, and Haley 3 Gravediggers is a invitation to clock yourself, and I don't play frequently enough to grind out the sheer number of games needed to get quick enough with the list The clock is definetly Haley's enemy. It's never been an issue for me, if anything I play too fast and loose. But with Haley3 I find myself taking a 20+ minute turn 2 which is wwwaaayyy too long. It's why I have rangers in the list now. I am tempted to play Haley 3 Gravediggers and not bother with repositioning behind the clouds, let my opponent burn their clock trying to hit def 17 Trenchers...
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