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Post by pvtjoker on Dec 20, 2017 22:21:09 GMT
First I have to say I don't get to play as often as I like, so I don't get to play around with lists enough to get a good feel for them. I also can't seem to find recent battle reports for Cygnar. Even lists on Discount Games seem to have gone dark since WTC. The impression I have is that the last Haley2 Feat change plus SR17 in general has hurt Cygnar because Heavy Metal tends to get jammed out of scenario and we don't have good jammy troops in return.
Now it may just be I have an older stable of casters, but it feels like power creep is very real. So at risk of crutching on the community I want to ask what are the strong lists in Cygnar right now? Perhaps separately, are there any strong lists that don't involve a third incarnation or Kraye? Not that I'm opposed to buying someone new, but don't like the idea that it is so easy to get left behind.
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Post by sludgeogre on Dec 21, 2017 2:54:18 GMT
After Haley2 got nerfed, a lot of people seemed to pick up their other factions and go with that. Patrick Dunford mostly plays Grymkin now and Trevor Attridge retired from the game. After all of the controversy with Jarle, he stopped really posting.
I think Haley2 was a big crutch for a lot of players and when it got nerfed and became only useful into low count armies, which there aren't a lot of anymore, a lot of people lost their major tool that they'd been playing for most of Mk3. There's still a lot of good lists out there and everyone seems to agree that Haley3 Gravediggers is going to be the strongest list in Cygnar for the rest of SR17, but the final form of that list has yet to take shape, other than it usually includes 2 Express Teams, a full unit of Trencher Long Gunners with CA, two grenadiers and a charger, two trench busters, ragman, and Aiyana and Holt with Murdoch.
There's still a lot of strong lists in Heavy Metal and Storm Division as well, but Gravediggers feels like it's way better with Haley3 than any other caster. Some people are saying sons is playable, but I don't think anyone is going to say it's optimal or better than the other themes right now, especially in SR17.
That being said, I'm terrible at this game and I lose quite a bit, Woo.
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Post by pvtjoker on Dec 21, 2017 3:21:19 GMT
Yeah, I didn't play H2 much because it made other people in my area really negative and I could still win fairly regularly. But now half the crowd is tilting heavily toward tournament play and more Cryx, Arkadius WWFF, and other boogeymen. As the game seems to reward skew more and more it really leaves our jack of all trades models out to dry. Even Stryker1's ARM skew is only a delaying tactic, and lack of ability to take Ragman in Heavy Metal when most factions have easy access to STR or POW buffs (or ARM debugs) means it is often delaying the inevitable. That's the impression that brings me here.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 21, 2017 10:35:17 GMT
I think the main theme of Cygnar is answering questions rather than asking difficult ones. We can ask a couple of good questions its true (Stryker 1 arm skew, Haley 3 def skew and cloud wall). However we lack for example a dirt cheap heavy that we can spam (Marauder), or swarms of high quality melee infantry (Banes, Exemplars) or mass stealth (Dank Host), or a big recursion engine (Ghost Fleet, Convergence), but in all honesty it is probably not appropriate we have those things.
In terms of our Caster stable we are in a pretty good place, and for me at least it feels the disparity between our top and our bottom is the lowest it has been. We currently have 21 casters (probably the highest of any faction), and I can only think of a handful who I would never put on the table.
In terms of our theme forces I think we are in a pretty good place, I think Heavy Metal and Storm Division have pretty uninspiring benefits outside of free points, the reason why is that they were amongst the first theme forces released, and therefore PP were a bit more reserved with the benefits. Heavy Metal is +2" deployment, which is nice but hardly exciting, and Storm Division gets advance move for Stormblades, who are still inferior to Storm Lances so I don't play them. If you compare this to say Rise for all Trenchers, or Pistoleer, or other factions themes like Gang Fighter for warjacks or extra recursion, Storm Division and Heavy Metal seem a bit vanilla. However Storm Division still has Storm Lances which hold it up, and Heavy Metal is still good with the improved Storm Strider and/or the right casters.
Gravediggers is a great theme force, mainly because trenchers have a lot of internal synergies that make them pretty good without any support, so anything the caster gives them is gravy, also it has accurate long ranged Grievous Wounds which is fantastic.
Sons I know is a bit more contentious among Cygnar players, however I have been having a blast with Caine 1 Sons, and now Falk is out you can really deal a lot of damage, which is one of players main criticisms of the list. I would just advise giving it a go.
I think one of Cygnars main strengths is it's ability to build a list that can crack armour, but then by virtue of being Cygnar, inadvertently rinse a fair amount of infantry as well. We have a deep bench of casters and 3 very different theme forces, I think it just requires people trying new things, if you can for example play a Nemo 2 or Stryker 3 really well, I guarantee you will do well at tourneys, simply because people do not expect them and do not appreciate what they can do, and if you play a quick, tight game with no or minimal mistakes due to your experience with them, that is often enough to win
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Post by frejdruk on Dec 21, 2017 14:41:50 GMT
Nemo3 and Haley3 seem like the strongest two casters in Cygnar nowadays. Haley3 probably one of the strongest lists in the game.
I've been hearing that Stryker2 is doing well for people I trust, and that feels likely to me too.
Caine3, Sloan and similar full on gunlines I don't rate very highly in SR17 vs competent opponents.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Dec 21, 2017 14:55:05 GMT
From what I've heard (I've played far too little this year to have personal experience) it's all about Haley3 Gravediggers right now. Nemo3 for sure, and Stryker1 as well.
I wouldn't count out Caine3, Stryker2, or Haley2 either.
That being said, I also found it odd that the Discount Games Inc tournament lists haven't been updated since October.
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Post by potato on Dec 21, 2017 16:49:51 GMT
Here is the current pair I have been running: conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0o919EicakfMfManagagaj9Ejz9u9K9L9MCygnar Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Sons of the Tempest (Brisbane 1) Major Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Defender [16] - Triumph [18] - Squire [0(5)] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Gun Mage Captain Adept [5] Gun Mage Captain Adept [5] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Defender [16] Lieutenant Bastian Falk [5] Ragman [4] Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11] - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4] Black 13th Strike Force [10] conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0Fid9Gicaming8if9uie8MayiNiha0igig9U9VCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers (Brisbane 2) Colonel Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Ironclad [12] - Triumph [18] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Commander Anson Hitch [4] Major Harrison Gibbs [4] Patrol Dog [2] Ragman [4] Trench Buster [0(5)] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Captain Jonas Murdoch [4] Trencher Commandos (max) [15] - Trencher Commando Officer [4] - Trencher Commando Scattergunner (1) [2] Trencher Express Team [0(5)] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] - Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper [5] Both lists have the common strength of layering damage buff after damage buff. Siege1 of course has his feat, while Siege2 has Fury. Both have Ragman, and an additional way to add +2 damage. Siege1 brings magic weapons + stealth/cloud hate on par with a legion list that can spam Wraithbane. This is huge in a meta with Llael Clouds, Zerkova1, Kolgrima, King of Nothing, Haley3, etc. He also brings RFP in a big way which is clutch against recursion lists like a lot of Cryx and Testament. Siege2 brings a super resilient list that excels at applying damage over time and that has real scenario pressure thanks to the express teams and a very mobile caster. He himself is also a beast in the long game where he will trivially smash a heavy before jumping away. Both of these casters are also quite hard to kill - Siege1 moreso thanks to Arcane Shield and Foxhole. Both casters are good at delivering their armies, thanks either to Foxhole to protect squishy solos, or Siege2's feat + desperate pace that allow you to out threat cav in melee. Generally speaking then, our strengths come from being able to layer on damage buffs like few other factions. We have access to very survivable casters, and the two lists above happen to threat a good amount of damage both at range and in melee. The Siege1 list is almost there to threaten more than to throw on the table, as its complete indifference to a lot of ranged denial means it often scares opponents into their other list. This sort of information is huge as a hard-hitting melee list is a great complement to the gunline from hell.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 21, 2017 16:53:23 GMT
Here is the current pair I have been running: conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0o919EicakfMfManagagaj9Ejz9u9K9L9MCygnar Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Sons of the Tempest (Brisbane 1) Major Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Defender [16] - Triumph [18] - Squire [0(5)] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Gun Mage Captain Adept [5] Gun Mage Captain Adept [5] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Defender [16] Lieutenant Bastian Falk [5] Ragman [4] Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11] - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4] Black 13th Strike Force [10] conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0Fid9Gicaming8if9uie8MayiNiha0igig9U9VCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers (Brisbane 2) Colonel Markus "Siege" Brisbane [+28] - Ironclad [12] - Triumph [18] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Commander Anson Hitch [4] Major Harrison Gibbs [4] Patrol Dog [2] Ragman [4] Trench Buster [0(5)] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Captain Jonas Murdoch [4] Trencher Commandos (max) [15] - Trencher Commando Officer [4] - Trencher Commando Scattergunner (1) [2] Trencher Express Team [0(5)] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] - Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper [5] Both lists have the common strength of layering damage buff after damage buff. Siege1 of course has his feat, while Siege2 has Fury. Both have Ragman, and an additional way to add +2 damage. Siege1 brings magic weapons + stealth/cloud hate on par with a legion list that can spam Wraithbane. This is huge in a meta with Llael Clouds, Zerkova1, Kolgrima, King of Nothing, Haley3, etc. He also brings RFP in a big way which is clutch against recursion lists like a lot of Cryx and Testament. Siege2 brings a super resilient list that excels at applying damage over time and that has real scenario pressure thanks to the express teams and a very mobile caster. He himself is also a beast in the long game where he will trivially smash a heavy before jumping away. Both of these casters are also quite hard to kill - Siege1 moreso thanks to Arcane Shield and Foxhole. Both casters are good at delivering their armies, thanks either to Foxhole to protect squishy solos, or Siege2's feat + desperate pace that allow you to out threat cav in melee. Generally speaking then, our strengths come from being able to layer on damage buffs like few other factions. We have access to very survivable casters, and the two lists above happen to threat a good amount of damage both at range and in melee. The Siege1 list is almost there to threaten more than to throw on the table, as its complete indifference to a lot of ranged denial means it often scares opponents into their other list. This sort of information is huge as a hard-hitting melee list is a great complement to the gunline from hell. I think Siege 2 has the High Ground over Siege 1...
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Post by pvtjoker on Dec 21, 2017 23:09:53 GMT
I actually am interested in trying Sons of the Tempest with Siege, Caine1, and Haley1. I should be getting Falk and a pair of Riflemen within the next week.
Gravediggers bothers me only because it would easily take $200 dollars to flesh out a decent list, which is vexing considering I have what I thought was a majority of the 'jacks and units for Cygnar.
Overall I still enjoy the game, but it feels like being competitive can come from high skill, gimmicky skews, or the super scary competition of the two. I can accept that we are good at answering questions, in a sense that appeals to me as an individual as well a gamer, but there seems to be a growing number of silly questions. I like that Warmahordes is not a game that required you to grind out a game that was basically decided two turns ago, but conversely I do not enjoy winning or losing a game top of two.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Dec 22, 2017 21:23:51 GMT
Yes there is a void in battle reports at the moment. The two big cygnar battle reporters Trevy and Jarle has jumped of radar. Try warroompl and page5de at youtube.
Overall my impression is that cygnar has had a dip in performence in the latest GT results i have seen. Cygnar has gotten several nerfs and other factions have gotten better themes.
As other has said haley3/nemo3 is a super pair.
Several other casters has competitive potensial as stryker 1 and 2, siege2, Kraye and still Haley2.
Gravediggers is super good. Nemo3 is good in bouth storm division and heavy metal. Stryker 2 can do bouth storm division or heavy Metal.
I hear people talk warm about SoT but havent seen any tournament results to back it up yet.
A big problem for cygnar lately has been cryx. Doesnt help that some metas then are swarming with cryx. I am looking forward/dreading what correction cryx will get in the new year. Seems like denny will be brought down, but im worried for Coven. If cryx are not brought down i worry for cygnar overall.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 23, 2017 18:42:55 GMT
I think the main theme of Cygnar is answering questions rather than asking difficult ones. We can ask a couple of good questions its true (Stryker 1 arm skew, Haley 3 def skew and cloud wall). However we lack for example a dirt cheap heavy that we can spam (Marauder), or swarms of high quality melee infantry (Banes, Exemplars) or mass stealth (Dank Host), or a big recursion engine (Ghost Fleet, Convergence), but in all honesty it is probably not appropriate we have those things. In terms of our Caster stable we are in a pretty good place, and for me at least it feels the disparity between our top and our bottom is the lowest it has been. We currently have 21 casters (probably the highest of any faction), and I can only think of a handful who I would never put on the table. In terms of our theme forces I think we are in a pretty good place, I think Heavy Metal and Storm Division have pretty uninspiring benefits outside of free points, the reason why is that they were amongst the first theme forces released, and therefore PP were a bit more reserved with the benefits. Heavy Metal is +2" deployment, which is nice but hardly exciting, and Storm Division gets advance move for Stormblades, who are still inferior to Storm Lances so I don't play them. If you compare this to say Rise for all Trenchers, or Pistoleer, or other factions themes like Gang Fighter for warjacks or extra recursion, Storm Division and Heavy Metal seem a bit vanilla. However Storm Division still has Storm Lances which hold it up, and Heavy Metal is still good with the improved Storm Strider and/or the right casters. Gravediggers is a great theme force, mainly because trenchers have a lot of internal synergies that make them pretty good without any support, so anything the caster gives them is gravy, also it has accurate long ranged Grievous Wounds which is fantastic. Sons I know is a bit more contentious among Cygnar players, however I have been having a blast with Caine 1 Sons, and now Falk is out you can really deal a lot of damage, which is one of players main criticisms of the list. I would just advise giving it a go. I think one of Cygnars main strengths is it's ability to build a list that can crack armour, but then by virtue of being Cygnar, inadvertently rinse a fair amount of infantry as well. We have a deep bench of casters and 3 very different theme forces, I think it just requires people trying new things, if you can for example play a Nemo 2 or Stryker 3 really well, I guarantee you will do well at tourneys, simply because people do not expect them and do not appreciate what they can do, and if you play a quick, tight game with no or minimal mistakes due to your experience with them, that is often enough to win This might seriously be the best post I've ever seen on these forums. I want to hit on a couple things here: 1- The early themes, of which we were the beneficiary, don't really give good benefits. 3" repo and everything being immune to lightning are simply not equal to Rise and +1 to your starting roll in Gravediggers or everything gets pathfinder in the Llaelese theme. 2- Cygnar lacks dirt cheap melee infantry that actively do things without synergies. There are no banes or Steelheads in our faction, which, while they can get better with buffs, they don't need them. By comparison, Sword Knights, Precursors, and both Stormguard units need either defensive buffs to stay alive or an offensive synergy to do their thing. That alone isn't necessarily enough to keep them off the table (for instance, Steelheads are arguably worse than Stormguard) but it's their price point that's really the kicker. Steelheads can flood the table and die in droves and you don't care. Stormguard cost 50% more and you *DO* care. Cygnar's strengths: 1- Some of the best warcasters in the game, especially offensively speaking. Every Cygnar warcaster aside from 2 have a gun: Constance Blaize and Siege2*. Casters that don't seem like offensive pieces like Haley2 can be downright murderous. Haley3 is a hell of a assassin. The Caines, the Strykers, the Siege's...on and on and on it goes. Cygnar's casters are WARcasters. 2- We don't have the guns like we did in MKii but we still have guns. In MKii it was almost possible to bring just loads and loads of guns and win games with a single unit of melee troopers. This isn't the case anymore. But Cygnar still brings the best guns to control the table and the flow of the game. 3- Complex trooper models. You're gonna pay for troopers and pay out the ass for them. That cost can be worth it. Stormblades are some of the hardest hitting troopers in the game, if you can master their guns you're gonna get everything and more out of them. If you run them up the table like they're Firetrucking steelheads you're paying too much. All single wound troopers in the game die in droves and when you're paying 2 points per model you better know how to milk them for all they're worth. 4- Not giving two rips about defense. Cygnar is a faction of "accuracy". You gotta know how to use Rangers, CRA, electroleaps, spells like Deadeye/Temporal Distortion/Force Hammer, and more to really get the most out of the this faction. 5- Light warjacks. Cygnar has very fine heavies but it's out light jacks that are the cream of the crop. The Firefly and Hunter are great jacks. Even the Minuteman is prolly pretty okay. The Grenadier and Charger can push unfair. Having great offensive output and meaty defensive stats (13/16 w/26 boxes?!?) make them really strong pieces in both important facets of the game: Hard to kill and hits above their weight class.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 24, 2017 7:36:12 GMT
Cygnars main problem is that it doesn't have any main melee infantry worth a damn which is a useful theme to have from a meta perspective.
Storm Division leans very heavily on lances and while they aren't terrible, I don't think the list is strong enough to compete with other options currently.
Cygnar is still strong. But SR2017 and Haley nerf knocked us down a rung or 2.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 24, 2017 16:39:16 GMT
snarlyyow thanks! Agreed our light jacksare fantastic, especially defensive wise, I find it hilarious our charger chassis has one more box than an Angelius
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 25, 2017 22:04:52 GMT
snarlyyow thanks! Agreed our light jacksare fantastic, especially defensive wise, I find it hilarious our charger chassis has one more box than an Angelius Surely. A lot of folks think our lights are unfair, especially the Charger and Hunter. But I think it's okay because the lights really play into what Cygnar already does which isn't crack armor supremely well. Chargers are great and hit above their weight class, but any anti-shooting tech makes their day sad. And our Heavies are perfectly fine but aside from Dynamo I wouldn't call any of them "unfair" or "belligerently OP". Hammersmiths and Ironclads are fine but we don't have a lot of speed buffs in-faction like Khador or Legion does to make a Battlegroup of 12 point heavies seem excessive. And I think that's what separates our perfectly acceptable heavies with other factions. You know, if we had the Charger as it is, and if every other caster in-faction had Mobility or Escort or Energizer or a feat that doubled speed I'd agree that the Charger is OP. It's prolly not okay to have a faction with lights like that coupled with Battlegroup heavies that can threaten 11" or 12" turn after turn. Can you imagine Harkevich or Vlad with Chargers and Kodiaks/Juggernauts?! It wouldn't be okay. So Cygnar has this jack situation where the lights are sort of oppressively great and the heavies are perfectly fine. You add in that three factions now can kill an Arcane Shielded colossal (Skorne, Minions, and Grymkin) with a single heavy and Cygnar is sort of in a weird place battlegroup-wise. Our light jacks are the source of much frustration at the expense of heavies that can't be reliably spammed (Outside maybe the Nemos). This sort of keeps Cygnar's ability to crack armor reliably in check.
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Post by killroundears on Dec 26, 2017 7:02:39 GMT
One of cygnar's biggest strengths is their non attack ability - electro leap. By virtue of not being an attack + auto hitting the list of defensive tech it ignores is actually incredibly impressive.
For example, a stormclad killing a heavy can send eleaps into the unit next to the heavy and not trigger vengeance despite killing multiple models - because vengeance requires it to be an enemy attack.
Or how about soul collection? quite a few soul collectors such as Testament will take souls based on an enemy attack
really awesome ability and i'm always envious of it
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