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Post by LoS Jaden on Dec 6, 2017 0:00:07 GMT
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 6, 2017 9:18:27 GMT
This is great, and I will have to go over it a few times, as this is one thing that I still struggle with. About Fennblades, though- I've always seen them called a jamming unit, and they seem to fit that category better even by the terms defined here. So Kriel Warriors are a tarpit unit and Fenns are a jamming unit, or am I missing something?
As for another type, I can think of one, and that is support units. Krielstone, Choir, Paingivers, mechanics of all sorts.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 7, 2017 14:29:47 GMT
Like I said in the Grymkin thread, formations would be an awesome article.
-und_ed
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Dec 7, 2017 14:45:47 GMT
Like I said in the Grymkin thread, formations would be an awesome article. -und_ed Seconded.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 7, 2017 17:29:27 GMT
This article is too general for my taste unfortunately. I also have never (since my uni years) liked the idea that dividing some concept into sub-categories helps solving anything. It only satisfies the need for having things organised (for people who like such things), but from the point of view of RL situations and problems, it serves nothing. That's why I hate all the training sessions my boss sends me to - they are always about categories and divisions , but never solutions. I am a teacher and for example don't really care what are the clever names for psychologic categories of problematic students. I want to know what exactly to tell them and how to treat them instead.
So my advice would be to go into specifics that have use in real games, not to build theoretical models behind them. For example : - what are the exact ranges that have to be between your first line of infantry to your next line of models, so that a charging 2"reach enemy will absolutely have to suffer a free strike if they want to bypass said first line (I see people underestimating that range all the time, thinking their second line can't be reached without free strikes...but the range is considerable, especially for large bases) - what formations to use to both maximise the CMD range of the Leader but not be left out of CMD range easily if the Leader dies. Is there some golden rule for the middle ground solution between spreading out as much as possible and staying safely in formation whatever happens ? etc
As far as I am concerned you can throw the theoretical models of categories and sub-categories into a trashbin.
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Post by LoS_Chandler on Dec 7, 2017 18:25:18 GMT
This article is too general for my taste unfortunately. I also have never (since my uni years) liked the idea that dividing some concept into sub-categories helps solving anything. It only satisfies the need for having things organised (for people who like such things), but from the point of view of RL situations and problems, it serves nothing. That's why I hate all the training sessions my boss sends me to - they are always about categories and divisions , but never solutions. I am a teacher and for example don't really care what are the clever names for psychologic categories of problematic students. I want to know what exactly to tell them and how to treat them instead. So my advice would be to go into specifics that have use in real games, not to build theoretical models behind them. For example : - what are the exact ranges that have to be between your first line of infantry to your next line of models, so that a charging 2"reach enemy will absolutely have to suffer a free strike if they want to bypass said first line (I see people underestimating that range all the time, thinking their second line can't be reached without free strikes...but the range is considerable, especially for large bases) - what formations to use to both maximise the CMD range of the Leader but not be left out of CMD range easily if the Leader dies. Is there some golden rule for the middle ground solution between spreading out as much as possible and staying safely in formation whatever happens ? etc As far as I am concerned you can throw the theoretical models of categories and sub-categories into a trashbin. This is a case of learning styles, and given the tone I'd say this is also a case of believing everyone thinks the same way you do. Personally I have extreme issues remembering things in general, my memory is very poor and trying to bring up specific information with no linking context becomes nearly impossible. Were I learning the game or in my first year or so and had someone just regaling me with information about precise 2" melee placements for frontal screening, or other similar concepts which are very specific, used on a case by case basis, and gives me no physical context to the situation, I will lose track of that information entirely. The way I've found over my lifetime that I'm able to most easily bring information to the forefront of my mind is through categorization, titling, and use of context rather than a specific "if X do Y" kind of format. This depends also on your target audience. For example, *now* if I was given that kind of ultra-specific information, I would be able to use it just fine because of the years I've put into the game and the practice I've had internalizing and using information once I hit the tabletop. Were this guide targeted at veteran players, certainly, I'd suggest that as well. When you're talking to a more broad spectrum of people, though, this form of categorization and organization makes it simple for the mind to comprehend and causes it to take up less of your time and energy thinking through in a game that can already be quite overwhelming as far as choices and input. Further, you're creating a framework from which a player can grow on their own experience; a guiding hand down the path rather than just picking them up and setting them where they need to be, as it were. We may, in time, drop an 'advanced' guide with more detailed and specific things for people, but something like this gives the most room for internalization and growth rather than being directed only to the end result. Also, as just a person... I'd suggest being more open to the concepts being presented you when dealing with teaching styles. Educators are important, but I realized very early that many were far too unwilling to accept the learning styles of different students and has lead to one of the biggest weaknesses of our education system; the complete rigidity of how its students are required to learn regardless of whether or not that style is any good for them. My experience in the school system all the way from Elementary up through Universities lead me to a very cynical, angry, and resentful view of how students are handled and how schools go about their craft. Now as a parent, touring schools for my own child getting ready to enter the education system, my number one concern from each place we go to is the same: is this school capable of being fluid and flexible when it comes to teaching to students with learning styles differing from one another.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 7, 2017 18:41:44 GMT
Hmm, I don't disagree that opinions and needs vary, that's why I underlined that it's just my feeling about the article ("for my tastes", "as far as I am concerned"). I absolutely agree that others may see it differently.
What I feel is, contrary to your experience, is that categorisation is the enemy of flexibility and individual approach. Especially in RL it only gives an illusion of control over things that are often very unique and have to be treated differently. To take the article as the example, categorising units isn't in my opinion as useful as perhaps listing the goals themselves. After all sometimes the best course of action is to send your Knights Exemplar on a jamming mission or stack up buffs to turn your Carrion Thralls into an armour-cracking unit.
The article that goes along the lines of "Knights Exemplar have high POW so they may be good at atmour cracking, so let's put them into the Armour-Crackers category. This means using them against high ARM targets is a good idea" is a series of truisms quite clear even for newbies and not really useful in any actual game of WM&H IMO.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 7, 2017 19:59:37 GMT
I agree with the way they are doing this and I am very much in that target audience. There are dozens upon dozens of different units in this game. That would be completely unmanageable if they all did wildly different things. FWIW, I do recall them saying that one unit could occupy multiple categories.
As for categories, would skirmishers qualify as a different one from ranged units? Striders are a prime example. Trollkin Scouts would be if they were playable. :P Would Battle Bears count? Without Reposition or something like that, they don't hit and run, but they do harass flanks in their own way.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Dec 7, 2017 20:33:20 GMT
I think the article is written to, and succeeds at, conveying a general chunk of information for the newly immersed. The examples are short and sweet and rely little to not at all on the model rules or faction strengths. It's a basic over arching concept on "jamming models jam and this is what we mean when we say "jam"". And the like.
It's no fault of the writer or the intended audience that it does not go into detail on how to use Knight Exemplars over Nyss Swordsmen. That kind of review would be impossible unless you (generalization) want to make an article on every single infantry unit.
So can I say I learned anything pertaining to my playstyle or list construction? No. Do I now know of a resource to point some one to who doesn't know a diverse way of utilizing infantry? Yes.
There may be times where you have to use Nyss swordsmen as a jamming unit. There are times where Legionnaires have to try to fill an armor cracking role by way of CMA. I mean I often use Strider Scouts as a jamming unit that turns into tar pits because of Incubi. Does that mean that Swordsmen are now only to be used as a jamming unit? No, it means the game board always requires different things.
Everyone has a different playstyle. But for a entry level explanation the article chooses a few good examples with clear pictures and demonstrations of concepts.
My biggest argument - Use different color text on the pictures. I'm color blind and literally had to give up reading what was on the images. Dark red/blue/purple on a dark green/grey/brown table is frustrating to borderline rage inducing. The only image I can read is the words "Dawnguard Sentinels" as it's over the bright circle zone. The vassal image, though it looks bad quality wise, is extremely clear to understand.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 8, 2017 12:37:57 GMT
I think you got fennblades and kriel warriors mixed up... Kriel warriors are slow and slightly durable, but cheap. They can not jam, because of SPD 5. Seems like a tar pit to me. Fennblades are fast and have reach to restrict access to the board. They CAN jam becuse of SPD6, vengeance and +2" charge movement. Seems like a jamming unit to me
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