ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Nov 5, 2017 19:04:05 GMT
Hmm each charge attack should do 28 damage on average and 24 on the second attack.. that is 12 dmg vs arm 20. This times 3 should one round a heavy.
If you really want to go nuts. Take madrak2 and then it is 31 and 28 damage. That is 18 dmg vs arm 20 This times 2 should one round a heavy.
Make sure you fell call them to get +2 hit
So in my opinion they are good at arm cracking
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 5, 2017 20:41:01 GMT
Hmm each charge attack should do 28 damage on average and 24 on the second attack.. that is 12 dmg vs arm 20. This times 3 should one round a heavy. If you really want to go nuts. Take madrak2 and then it is 31 and 28 damage. That is 18 dmg vs arm 20 This times 2 should one round a heavy. Make sure you fell call them to get +2 hit So in my opinion they are good at arm cracking This ^ I feel like the Champs also have the benefit of being able to take a hit and Retalitory back for some very relevant damage. Being a high enough DEF that most heavies will need to boost to hit also helps them fight jacks.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Nov 5, 2017 23:39:25 GMT
with madrak2 the succes rate of 2 champs under blood fury, fell caller and getting the charge
On a kahdor heavy at arm 20, def 10 and 34 boxes
is about 72%
With any other caster without additional buffs or debuffs you need atleast 3 champs for a succes rate of: 65%
Mind you I am getting these numbers from an app called "buy or boost". I have not done the math myself (yet)
If I set the value at arm 30 the succes rate goes over the 80% barrier.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Nov 6, 2017 1:29:38 GMT
Huh. I must have been rolling badly, then. Well, I'll keep at it, I like playing then anyways, given how hard they are to take down.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Nov 6, 2017 18:03:11 GMT
Huh. I must have been rolling badly, then. Well, I'll keep at it, I like playing then anyways, given how hard they are to take down. no this is my experience too, Champs without a damage buff can do decent work to things under 20 ARM but their damage output quickly drops off once you hit the infamous ARM 20. Also the std dev's for that many dice makes it not unlikely to fail at one rounding a khador heavy without stacking +4 damage on them or giving them something like blood fury.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Nov 6, 2017 18:35:44 GMT
Champs without a damage buff, for me, have been unpredictable in destructive capacity. Jarl can get 'em there fast, but no damage buff. Madrak2 can give 'em our best infantry damage buff, but can't give 'em the improved speed to engage properly. It is difficult to get an opponent to place a warjack/warbeast in the perfect spot to make sure at least 3 40mm Champs can all acquire Charging-melee range (making Champs a prime casualty of the change to premeasuring, especially due to their B2B-predilection).
Jarl/SotN (KSB-N) seems like a good solution providing max delivery-move OR damage buff when needed. (Note: if Fenns were allowed in SotN... There is a reason 2" melee is important for 40mm infantry models, geometric limitations to access to combat!)
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 7, 2017 1:56:33 GMT
Champs without a damage buff, for me, have been unpredictable in destructive capacity. Jarl can get 'em there fast, but no damage buff. Madrak2 can give 'em our best infantry damage buff, but can't give 'em the improved speed to engage properly. It is difficult to get an opponent to place a warjack/warbeast in the perfect spot to make sure at least 3 40mm Champs can all acquire Charging-melee range (making Champs a prime casualty of the change to premeasuring, especially due to their B2B-predilection). Jarl/SotN (KSB-N) seems like a good solution providing max delivery-move OR damage buff when needed. (Note: if Fenns were allowed in SotN... There is a reason 2" melee is important for 40mm infantry models, geometric limitations to access to combat!) That was my original thought with Jarl and the Cold Stone. Being able to be flexible in SPD or STR on the Champs is a win. The Fell Caller helps with hitting. I like that about my support pieces. They sure up the weaknesses in a Warlock’s spell list.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 7, 2017 20:20:16 GMT
This is quite clever and I like it a lot.
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 8, 2017 23:58:42 GMT
Okay I got a test game in last night vs. the standard tournament Coven Dark Host (my opponent said he wasn't going to drop Denny1 Ghost Fleet in casual games anymore because it is too abusive, so he dropped Coven DH lol). I played the Fire Eater variant as my Battle Bears were not here yet.
My list:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North
(Skuld 1) Jarl Skuld, Devil of the Thornwood [+30] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Pyre Troll [8] - Rok [19] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Feralgeist [2] Trollkin Champion Hero [5] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] - Trollkin Sorcerer (1) [3]
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His list:
Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host
(Coven 1) The Witch Coven of Garlghast [+26] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Desecrator [14] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Bane Riders (max) [20] Bane Riders (max) [20] Bane Warriors (min) [10] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (min) [10] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Wraith Engine [15]
We played on Standoff. I won the roll and chose to go first. I chose Armory for my Objective. I placed the two snow drifts side by side in the right zone. I forget to deploy my Swamp Gobbers.
First turn I put Quicken on the Champs and dumped four into the Stone. The Stone gave +1 SPD and walked forward riling for two more Fury. The Champs ran 16" into the zone on my right staying out of threat ranges of the Cav but behind the Fire Eaters (both units ran after being lit up by the Pyre Troll). His first turn he runs to just out of walk and hit range with all his Cav on the right leaving one close enough to bait out Vengeance. His Cav on the left side do the same. The Bane Warriors are behind the Cav units far enough to not be an issue for two more turns at least. He feats.
Turn two I choose to use this as a counter feat turn. Fire goes out on two Fire Eaters and kills two more (failed their Tough checks). I run both units of Fire Eaters to engage his Cav on the right. I run the Champs to be outside of walk threat of the Cav. I feat and get six clouds. I make a five cloud wall in the right zone blocking LOS to everything on the right (Champs, Fell Caller, Hero, Jarl). I place one cloud to the left of the LOS terrain to block sight to Rok and the Bomber. I run the Pyre Troll to the left but not far enough to contest the left zone.
My opponent tries to clear out the Fire Eaters and fails to kill three stopping the entire right side from doing much. He gets a single Cav charge into Skaldi who Retaliatory Strikes off the Impact Attack (unsure if this is allowed) and kills the Cav. He keeps the left side Cav back and in the left zone. He runs the Wraith Engine into my middle zone engaging Rok, the Bomber, and three Champs. He runs the left unit of Bane Warriors engaging my Pyre Troll with two. He goes up two points.
Turn three I have a plan to kill one of the Coven. He left the egg on one Focus and kept a witch within 4" of both a Jack and the Objective so I can reliably kill her with three Magic Bullets (two from Jarl and one from the Bomber). I must kill the Wraith Engine to do this. I forget to pop +2 STR before going in with the Champs, which will come back to bite me. I can only get three Champs into the Engine due to poor positioning on my part. I give Magic Weapons with the Sorcerer. I end up leaving the Engine on six boxes.
I chose to give Rok Magic Weapons with my Objective and boost and an attack roll into the Engine needing a five, I roll one, one, two...well that sucks. At this point I am desperate to clear out the Engine and contest the left zone, so I don't lose right there. Jarl tries a Hail Mary shooting twice into the Engine and Magic Bulleting two Bane Warriors while he does it. He leaves the Engine on two boxes.
I walk the Bomber out of Melee taking a Free Strike from the Engine, he does fourteen damage taking out my Mind. I should have moved the Bomber and faced him to throw a bomb at the Engine after the Free Strike, but I was a little tilted from the mistakes and dice. I try and fail with the Bomber to free up the Pyre Troll. The Pyre Troll must move to the left zone taking a Free Strike from a Bane Warrior to get there. He takes seventeen damage from that strike leaving just his Spirit remaining. I double boost into the Warrior that hit me and splat him. I run the Feralgeist to contest his middle zone. No points are scored.
His turn three starts with him taking out my objective with the Wraith Engine and one Bane Warrior. He then kills the Pyre Troll and the Feralgeist and ends his turn going up to five points.
Cryx Victory on Scenario 5-0
It is hard to really judge how this list performed here because of multiple errors in my play. Had I given the Champs +2 STR the Engine would have died, and I could have proceeded with my plan to kill a witch. Rok would have cleared the Warriors off the Pyre Troll who could then position to the left zone and forced the Cav to come in on him. I could realistically gone up two points that turn. Being down a witch would really have evened out the playing field as he would drop to Focus six which is huge. Had I put my Gobbers on the table I could have used them to contest the left zone so my Pyre didn't have to.
I felt comfortable in the matchup and really want to try it out again sometime. I did not feel disadvantaged really. If I go first I can always counter his feat. Going second, I will need to make a game plan. This game was weird for both players. We each had very low dice (we succeeded in one tough roll between us). We agreed that a valuation of my list would need to be put on hold until more games were played.
I will say that Jarl has some cool tricks up his sleeve. Magic Bullet is a good spell and being able to drop three of them a turn (two from Jarl and one from the Runebearer) is very good. Quicken on the Champs felt awesome. Running them 16” turn one was so cool. I feel a Champ Hero is very important. Being able to Retaliatory off Impact Attacks (assuming that is allowed) give them game into Cav. The Stone being able to rile itself up is so good. I had seven Fury on the Stone every turn after the first. The Northkin Elder is also really good. Being flexible with +1 SPD or +2 STR is the utility I like to have in a list.
I want to get more reps in with this list. My Battle Bears come in tomorrow and will be subbing into the list.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 9, 2017 8:04:33 GMT
Thanks for the report! Did you really lose 2 fire eaters to fire damage? You need to roll an 11 on damage and then fail tough Defensive striking off an impact attack sounds legal to me. Good tech! Also, not killing the Wraith engine with 3 charging champs That should average about 8*3 + 4,5*3 = 37,5 damage even without the stone lol Finally, incorporeal models can not make free strikes. They removed that ability in MK3 because of how it interacts with being able to move through them. This is important to remember Nice to see you having a game (barring horrible dice) in to a really hardcore list. I have had a lot of success in the past with Jarl in PoD, basically because the beasts are good enough without much support, and having a feat that helps you get an alpha is very strong. Add the fact that Jarl can kill 4 dudes a turn over the whole game, and you have really strong attrition. Glad to see that it works in SotN too
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 9, 2017 9:24:46 GMT
Thanks for the report! Did you really lose 2 fire eaters to fire damage? You need to roll an 11 on damage and then fail tough Defensive striking off an impact attack sounds legal to me. Good tech! Also, not killing the Wraith engine with 3 charging champs That should average about 8*3 + 4,5*3 = 37,5 damage even without the stone lol Finally, incorporeal models can not make free strikes. They removed that ability in MK3 because of how it interacts with being able to move through them. This is important to remember Nice to see you having a game (barring horrible dice) in to a really hardcore list. I have had a lot of success in the past with Jarl in PoD, basically because the beasts are good enough without much support, and having a feat that helps you get an alpha is very strong. Add the fact that Jarl can kill 4 dudes a turn over the whole game, and you have really strong attrition. Glad to see that it works in SotN too Yeah rolled box cars on one Eater and eleven on the other. Thank you for letting me know the change to Free Strikes. It hasn’t come up often so I figured they still get the option to do so. Jarl’s Magic Bullet threat range is pretty bananas. I’ll test out Battle Bears version next week. I have a tournament coming up on the 18th and want to bring Jarl as one of my lists.
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 9, 2017 16:32:45 GMT
Was looking at the Troll mirror and I feel comfortable dropping this Jarl list into Madrak1, or at least want to give it a go. My Champs out threat his by a large margin. I can get one turn of that sweet sweet DEF 16 vs. him.
Magic Bullet is the real star here again. Since the damage is not from an attack it circumvents Sanguine Bond. You can also scalpel out the Sorcerers first since they also cannot Sanguine. You’re dice minus six on the damage roll but you can reliably plink away or get the last box or two if they are already damaged.
The Fell Caller gives your Champs a little less than 50/50 to hit his. His are much more accurate with Guided Hand but hopefully you can do enough damage on the alpha to mitigate the retaliation.
My other choice in the pairing I want to bring is Doomy2. He also brings the alpha and a Berserking Overtaking MAT 9 POW 20 boosted Attack Rolls Rok to bear...which might just be straight up better.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 9, 2017 20:28:29 GMT
Magic Bullet also circumvents self sacrifice, so you can easily kill off the kriel stone bearer and poof! no aura that round
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Post by grabsnikk on Nov 9, 2017 21:52:15 GMT
Magic Bullet also circumvents self sacrifice, so you can easily kill off the kriel stone bearer and poof! no aura that round Yup, thats a pretty good way to get rid of the Stone.
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Post by bohemianchops on Nov 9, 2017 22:02:56 GMT
Magic Bullet also circumvents self sacrifice, so you can easily kill off the kriel stone bearer and poof! no aura that round Great point. I have a Troll mirror tonight and will be trying the Fire Eater list once again (darn Bears being in the mail still). I shall hopefully report a Troll win
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