Bethayne, Belphagore, & Blightbringer - Build & Batrep
Mar 29, 2017 18:42:52 GMT
piedpiperwtf likes this
Post by Cheesebeard on Mar 29, 2017 18:42:52 GMT
Hold on for a ride, there's no TL;DR on this one... but I did test it against Butcher1 Winterguard theme last night (batrep, and closing thoughts at the end)
This is a recent example of the kind of balanced list I'm looking forward to experimenting with. It's slightly off the beaten path, but I think it could have some game:
Bethayne, Voice of Everblight - WB: +20
- Succubus - PC: 4 (0)
- Belphagor
- Blightbringer - PC: 38 (Battlegroup Points Used: 20)
- Carnivean - PC: 19
- Nephilim Protector - PC: 10
- Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8
The Forsaken - PC: 4 (0)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 6 (0)
The basic inspiration is trying to use the Blightbringer (it's been lonely) to construct a balanced list featuring a midline caster.
Oracles is a natural fit, because it's the best theme for getting extra points in a balanced battlegroup that also supports spellcasting - both great things that could shore up a lot of Bethayne's weaknesses.
A melded Bethayne can get to 13/24 every turn (15/24 vs melee), before cloak of ash, for 4 fury using invocation of blood, spiny growth, and dragon's breath.
The list can produce a 6 point ARM swing for warrior models (8 for melded Bethayne), and they gain flank with warbeasts on feat. Beasts can get a 4 point damage swing, although it's entirely spell-based.
Solving for DEF is also doable between 3x ice cage, withering ash, shadow bind, and telemetry (plus flank on feat).
Infantry swarms can be managed with hex hunters, Blightbringer with blood thorn, and some sprays.
Overall, I like it. I think it has game into a lot of things if I'm doing things right, although dedicated skews could be tricky.
The Butcher1 Winterguard test (Scenario: Two Flags; Butcher, Winderguard rockets, Joe, Mortar x2, Ruin, min mechanics, and something like 2x Kodiak and 2x Juggernaut):
Okay, so, this matchup was scary, and I had this list paired with the Twins, and he had Butcher1 paired with Zerkova1 (yeah, we're running some experimental stuff between events). I didn't think the Twins wanted to see a bunch of rockets under Butcher1's feat, and I honestly didn't pay much attention to Zerkova1 because I thought he'd drop Butcher1. I'm going to try to be quick about this, but bear with me...:
I put Blood Thorn on BB, and Cloak of Ash on Hex Hunters, for stealth. I apparated the BFS to give extra threat, and they move up and stealth. Everything runs up defensively, with most stuff in the BB's Dragon Breath, and prep Bethayne to get to the flag next turn still in Belphagore. I spread my hex hunters out, but the dogganmed mortar still deviated into Bayal and killed him - I really hate that thing. Butcher runs everything, and aside from that one mortar deviation, nothing happens.
Next turn, Hex hunters apparate and kill the mortar. BFS moves up and stealths after kissing a Kodiak that wandered too close. The Blightbringer moves up and puts a shot into 9 Winterguard (2 rockets), and Joe - they have Iron Flesh and Tough up, so only one dies, but they're all corroded. The Carnivean punches the kissed Kodiak down to a few boxes, and it's blocked from non-trample retaliation by a forest, and puts up Spiny Growth. I get Bethayne on the flag, in Belphagore, with Spiny Growth, in the BB aura - she is very safe - and a boosted Balphagore spray cleans up the Kodiak. Butcher goes and rolls out 7 of the 9 corrosion rolls (welcome to my life). Butcher feats and puts up full throttle, and the remaining mortar, joe, and winterguard and 2 rockets bring the Blightbringer down to 3 boxes. Good lord... why is this a thing. A Kodiak tramples into the Carnivean and slaps it a few times, but doesn't accomplish much. Everything else positions aggressively.
Turn 3, we're running low on time (shop is closing), so I'll summarize the flurry of activations. Bethayne pops feat and goes into defensive mode on a flag, but gets some swings into a jack, and the hex hunters do basically nothing despite flank. Carnivean cleans up, and I fail to notice vengeful strike on Ruin in my haste and he one-shots the Blightbringer (not a great moment). The Forsaken gets flank from the Bloodseer, and almost scraps a jack on her own, and the BFS and protector do some damage, but everything feels congested. We don't have time for Butcher to fully activate, so we simulate an assassination run with Ruin and a Juggernaut going onto Bethayne. Jugg crits her on the first hit - and because she is no longer immune to effing cold for some reason she is stationary instead of DEF 15... ffs PP... why u do dis. But between the loaded Juggernaut and fully-loaded ruin, both with full throttle, they can't take Bethayne down, so that's a moral victory. We didn't roll all the damage on the battlegroup, but there were enough transfers and boxes to make it a non-issue to live, just a question of what would be left to fight the jacks and winterguard while Butcher strokes Lola suggestively on the other flag.
Overall impression: Not impressed. Legion is way too squishy to field a midline caster, because nothing else can survive the approach, particularly against warmachine, and especially against Khador, and it's damned near impossible against Butcher1 gunline. The dice effed me quite a bit, but I survived a loaded Jugg and Ruin after the charge stationary'd Bethayne, so that's something. I've retired the list for now, and have little interest in either the Blightbringer or Bethayne in their current state...
Edit/Continued: But it's so tempting. The discussion in this thread has gotten me thinking, again... The most difficult thing about her feat is delivering enough models to the correct places to make a lasting impact, and having enough control/survivability/power to not rely entirely on the feat. The Carnivean was a huge boon in that regard. The weak point, unfortunately, may be the Blightbringer - although I think it would have fared significantly better against most other matchups, and it's a core element of the list so I'm hesitant to remove it. I think I need to run Bethayne head first into something that's not Butcher1 and see how it goes.
This is a recent example of the kind of balanced list I'm looking forward to experimenting with. It's slightly off the beaten path, but I think it could have some game:
Bethayne, Voice of Everblight - WB: +20
- Succubus - PC: 4 (0)
- Belphagor
- Blightbringer - PC: 38 (Battlegroup Points Used: 20)
- Carnivean - PC: 19
- Nephilim Protector - PC: 10
- Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8
The Forsaken - PC: 4 (0)
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 6 (0)
The basic inspiration is trying to use the Blightbringer (it's been lonely) to construct a balanced list featuring a midline caster.
Oracles is a natural fit, because it's the best theme for getting extra points in a balanced battlegroup that also supports spellcasting - both great things that could shore up a lot of Bethayne's weaknesses.
A melded Bethayne can get to 13/24 every turn (15/24 vs melee), before cloak of ash, for 4 fury using invocation of blood, spiny growth, and dragon's breath.
The list can produce a 6 point ARM swing for warrior models (8 for melded Bethayne), and they gain flank with warbeasts on feat. Beasts can get a 4 point damage swing, although it's entirely spell-based.
Solving for DEF is also doable between 3x ice cage, withering ash, shadow bind, and telemetry (plus flank on feat).
Infantry swarms can be managed with hex hunters, Blightbringer with blood thorn, and some sprays.
Overall, I like it. I think it has game into a lot of things if I'm doing things right, although dedicated skews could be tricky.
The Butcher1 Winterguard test (Scenario: Two Flags; Butcher, Winderguard rockets, Joe, Mortar x2, Ruin, min mechanics, and something like 2x Kodiak and 2x Juggernaut):
Okay, so, this matchup was scary, and I had this list paired with the Twins, and he had Butcher1 paired with Zerkova1 (yeah, we're running some experimental stuff between events). I didn't think the Twins wanted to see a bunch of rockets under Butcher1's feat, and I honestly didn't pay much attention to Zerkova1 because I thought he'd drop Butcher1. I'm going to try to be quick about this, but bear with me...:
I put Blood Thorn on BB, and Cloak of Ash on Hex Hunters, for stealth. I apparated the BFS to give extra threat, and they move up and stealth. Everything runs up defensively, with most stuff in the BB's Dragon Breath, and prep Bethayne to get to the flag next turn still in Belphagore. I spread my hex hunters out, but the dogganmed mortar still deviated into Bayal and killed him - I really hate that thing. Butcher runs everything, and aside from that one mortar deviation, nothing happens.
Next turn, Hex hunters apparate and kill the mortar. BFS moves up and stealths after kissing a Kodiak that wandered too close. The Blightbringer moves up and puts a shot into 9 Winterguard (2 rockets), and Joe - they have Iron Flesh and Tough up, so only one dies, but they're all corroded. The Carnivean punches the kissed Kodiak down to a few boxes, and it's blocked from non-trample retaliation by a forest, and puts up Spiny Growth. I get Bethayne on the flag, in Belphagore, with Spiny Growth, in the BB aura - she is very safe - and a boosted Balphagore spray cleans up the Kodiak. Butcher goes and rolls out 7 of the 9 corrosion rolls (welcome to my life). Butcher feats and puts up full throttle, and the remaining mortar, joe, and winterguard and 2 rockets bring the Blightbringer down to 3 boxes. Good lord... why is this a thing. A Kodiak tramples into the Carnivean and slaps it a few times, but doesn't accomplish much. Everything else positions aggressively.
Turn 3, we're running low on time (shop is closing), so I'll summarize the flurry of activations. Bethayne pops feat and goes into defensive mode on a flag, but gets some swings into a jack, and the hex hunters do basically nothing despite flank. Carnivean cleans up, and I fail to notice vengeful strike on Ruin in my haste and he one-shots the Blightbringer (not a great moment). The Forsaken gets flank from the Bloodseer, and almost scraps a jack on her own, and the BFS and protector do some damage, but everything feels congested. We don't have time for Butcher to fully activate, so we simulate an assassination run with Ruin and a Juggernaut going onto Bethayne. Jugg crits her on the first hit - and because she is no longer immune to effing cold for some reason she is stationary instead of DEF 15... ffs PP... why u do dis. But between the loaded Juggernaut and fully-loaded ruin, both with full throttle, they can't take Bethayne down, so that's a moral victory. We didn't roll all the damage on the battlegroup, but there were enough transfers and boxes to make it a non-issue to live, just a question of what would be left to fight the jacks and winterguard while Butcher strokes Lola suggestively on the other flag.
Overall impression: Not impressed. Legion is way too squishy to field a midline caster, because nothing else can survive the approach, particularly against warmachine, and especially against Khador, and it's damned near impossible against Butcher1 gunline. The dice effed me quite a bit, but I survived a loaded Jugg and Ruin after the charge stationary'd Bethayne, so that's something. I've retired the list for now, and have little interest in either the Blightbringer or Bethayne in their current state...
Edit/Continued: But it's so tempting. The discussion in this thread has gotten me thinking, again... The most difficult thing about her feat is delivering enough models to the correct places to make a lasting impact, and having enough control/survivability/power to not rely entirely on the feat. The Carnivean was a huge boon in that regard. The weak point, unfortunately, may be the Blightbringer - although I think it would have fared significantly better against most other matchups, and it's a core element of the list so I'm hesitant to remove it. I think I need to run Bethayne head first into something that's not Butcher1 and see how it goes.