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Post by Blargaliscious on Oct 18, 2017 20:50:49 GMT
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 0:57:53 GMT
So...
It is weird that Even Ground finally become a COST 3 spell. Didn't they forgot that Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock?
A change of Sanguine Bond is a boon for the Bastions, but they just become the lesser Champions. I don't think that Protectorate will play Bastions even with this.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Oct 19, 2017 1:52:53 GMT
So... It is weird that Even Ground finally become a COST 3 spell. Didn't they forgot that Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock? A change of Sanguine Bond is a boon for the Bastions, but they just become the lesser Champions. I don't think that Protectorate will play Bastions even with this. Runebearer can reduce the cost of even ground to 2. So that helps. Madrak should still have Fury to play with.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 19, 2017 2:18:16 GMT
dogganmIT PP I JUST FINISHED FIXING MY CRYX DECK.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 2:22:15 GMT
So... It is weird that Even Ground finally become a COST 3 spell. Didn't they forgot that Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock? A change of Sanguine Bond is a boon for the Bastions, but they just become the lesser Champions. I don't think that Protectorate will play Bastions even with this. Runebearer can reduce the cost of even ground to 2. So that helps. Madrak should still have Fury to play with. Even so, it means Runebearer is a must have without an option, and even with the Runebearer Madrak is just a living vessel of Even Ground and doesn't do much. Remember that he is a Hordes warlock, that is usually expected to cast at leas one animus each turn aftet round 1. His choice is limited to either cast Even Ground, an animus and leave one fury, or cast Even Ground, leave two fury points and cast Guided Hand by Spell Slave. Unless he become a FURY 6 warlock it seems too punitive.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 19, 2017 3:14:16 GMT
The idea that the devs seemed to have a hard on for in CiD was he would be utilizing blood boon every turn. Hilariously after casting snipe, boosting to hit and boosting damage you still have spent 3 fury and risk a flubbed dice roll. Even though I pointed this out multiple times in cid and talked about how it was a huge limitation to his kit but a bunch of rando's on there kept whining about how op even ground was....Meanwhile Barny gets a cost 2 execration which is just a flat-2 for everyone within the same distance (sans runebearer) and is not ignored by blessed.
Basically I am mostly pleased but kind of frustrated that they did not reduce the cost of Even ground. He is still really really good. Just a quality of life thing honestly.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 19, 2017 3:34:34 GMT
The idea that the devs seemed to have a hard on for in CiD was he would be utilizing blood boon every turn. Hilariously after casting snipe, boosting to hit and boosting damage you still have spent 3 fury and risk a flubbed dice roll. Even though I pointed this out multiple times in cid and talked about how it was a huge limitation to his kit but a bunch of rando's on there kept whining about how op even ground was....Meanwhile Barny gets a cost 2 execration which is just a flat-2 for everyone within the same distance (sans runebearer) and is not ignored by blessed. Basically I am mostly pleased but kind of frustrated that they did not reduce the cost of Even ground. He is still really really good. Just a quality of life thing honestly. So...I don't agree with this comparison at all. First, I suspect Barnabus2 as he was at the end of CID was, if anything, a bit overtuned. So not a great baseline. Second, Minions don't and can't defense skew like Trolls (now) can. Champions with Defensive line go to DEF 16 under this spell, Earthborn near water (which trolls can now make with the sea king) etc. Third, the no KD portion of the spell is important. The best way to get around high defense is knockdown, and Madrak no-sells that with even ground (yes, I know Barnabus is steady. I personally think he should lose that in order to make it possible to assassinate him.) Also, no KD is even more valuable in Trolls, what with having tough all over the place. Fourth, the range with the stone scribe (which, as mentioned, is mandatory) is actually 12". And you only have to catch your own models in it, not enemy models, which means you've got waaaay more functional coverage against most things that actually threaten you. Fifth, Blood Boon isn't something to count on every turn, every game, for sure. BUT, it is a decent way to get work out of a caster with respectable personal output, and still be able to cast his signature spell. Not to mention that you're rarely going to have boost the damage roll against the infantry models you're probably targeting to trigger blood boon, and you get a second attack through richochet if the dice fail you.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 4:01:20 GMT
The idea that the devs seemed to have a hard on for in CiD was he would be utilizing blood boon every turn. Hilariously after casting snipe, boosting to hit and boosting damage you still have spent 3 fury and risk a flubbed dice roll. Even though I pointed this out multiple times in cid and talked about how it was a huge limitation to his kit but a bunch of rando's on there kept whining about how op even ground was....Meanwhile Barny gets a cost 2 execration which is just a flat-2 for everyone within the same distance (sans runebearer) and is not ignored by blessed. Basically I am mostly pleased but kind of frustrated that they did not reduce the cost of Even ground. He is still really really good. Just a quality of life thing honestly. So...I don't agree with this comparison at all. First, I suspect Barnabus2 as he was at the end of CID was, if anything, a bit overtuned. So not a great baseline. Second, Minions don't and can't defense skew like Trolls (now) can. Champions with Defensive line go to DEF 16 under this spell, Earthborn near water (which trolls can now make with the sea king) etc. Third, the no KD portion of the spell is important. The best way to get around high defense is knockdown, and Madrak no-sells that with even ground (yes, I know Barnabus is steady. I personally think he should lose that in order to make it possible to assassinate him.) Also, no KD is even more valuable in Trolls, what with having tough all over the place. Fourth, the range with the stone scribe (which, as mentioned, is mandatory) is actually 12". And you only have to catch your own models in it, not enemy models, which means you've got waaaay more functional coverage against most things that actually threaten you. Fifth, Blood Boon isn't something to count on every turn, every game, for sure. BUT, it is a decent way to get work out of a caster with respectable personal output, and still be able to cast his signature spell. Not to mention that you're rarely going to have boost the damage roll against the infantry models you're probably targeting to trigger blood boon, and you get a second attack through richochet if the dice fail you. And I don't think so. Trollbloods are have low DEF by default, so global +2 DEF spell is fully accepted. Also, without the stone their units are too fragile, and they are have to be within the stone therefore limiting their radius of action. You said DEF 16 of Champions, but that's only applied on melee attacks. And Champions' Defensive Line already gives immunity to Knockdown. Although I am a Cygnar gamer and I never play the game without a model with Attachment at all unless it is less than 25 points game, I know that some warcasters aren't need for an Attachment to play. I know that warcasters are generally better than warlocks barring the resource management system. But, even consider this his play style is too boring. He is required to take the Runebearer to be playable. Even so, he can't do more than cast Even Ground and sit idle or barely cast an animus, despite the fact that he is designed as a frontline warcaster that must leave at least one or two fury points to survive. The idea of casting Even Ground by Blood Boon is no more than a fancy idea as well, even on the paper and got worse on the real games. Cast Snipe and boosting the attack roll already costs him 2 fury points and all you got in addition to have FREE Even Ground is kill a typical enemy trooper. If it was missed it goes worse. And that is only happens if the opponents lets you to bring the unit to kill. You don't choose the list and the moves in the game of your opponent. The opponent does. An idea that rely on your opponent is already a failed idea, so do the high risk and low return.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 19, 2017 5:03:10 GMT
So...I don't agree with this comparison at all. First, I suspect Barnabus2 as he was at the end of CID was, if anything, a bit overtuned. So not a great baseline. Second, Minions don't and can't defense skew like Trolls (now) can. Champions with Defensive line go to DEF 16 under this spell, Earthborn near water (which trolls can now make with the sea king) etc. Third, the no KD portion of the spell is important. The best way to get around high defense is knockdown, and Madrak no-sells that with even ground (yes, I know Barnabus is steady. I personally think he should lose that in order to make it possible to assassinate him.) Also, no KD is even more valuable in Trolls, what with having tough all over the place. Fourth, the range with the stone scribe (which, as mentioned, is mandatory) is actually 12". And you only have to catch your own models in it, not enemy models, which means you've got waaaay more functional coverage against most things that actually threaten you. Fifth, Blood Boon isn't something to count on every turn, every game, for sure. BUT, it is a decent way to get work out of a caster with respectable personal output, and still be able to cast his signature spell. Not to mention that you're rarely going to have boost the damage roll against the infantry models you're probably targeting to trigger blood boon, and you get a second attack through richochet if the dice fail you. And I don't think so. Trollbloods are have low DEF by default, so global +2 DEF spell is fully accepted. Also, without the stone their units are too fragile, and they are have to be within the stone therefore limiting their radius of action. You said DEF 16 of Champions, but that's only applied on melee attacks. And Champions' Defensive Line already gives immunity to Knockdown. Although I am a Cygnar gamer and I never play the game without a model with Attachment at all unless it is less than 25 points game, I know that some warcasters aren't need for an Attachment to play. I know that warcasters are generally better than warlocks barring the resource management system. But, even consider this his play style is too boring. He is required to take the Runebearer to be playable. Even so, he can't do more than cast Even Ground and sit idle or barely cast an animus, despite the fact that he is designed as a frontline warcaster that must leave at least one or two fury points to survive. The idea of casting Even Ground by Blood Boon is no more than a fancy idea as well, even on the paper and got worse on the real games. Cast Snipe and boosting the attack roll already costs him 2 fury points and all you got in addition to have FREE Even Ground is kill a typical enemy trooper. If it was missed it goes worse. And that is only happens if the opponents lets you to bring the unit to kill. You don't choose the list and the moves in the game of your opponent. The opponent does. An idea that rely on your opponent is already a failed idea, so do the high risk and low return. Bullcrap. Defense 14 (16 in melee) is extremely solid. It gets champions over the hump to where most guns need to CRA or aim to hit them reliably (most guns being Rat 5 or 6) which in turn means less shots coming at them, which means fewer dead champions. Against melee, defense 16 is in boost-or-miss territory, on models that have the armor + boxes to take a few jack/beast swings and come out of it alive (due to sanguine bond.) Minions don't have anything that hits that level of resilience (and again, execration doesn't give no KD.) The no-KD was not referring to champions. It refers to the Def 14, Arm 21 heavies, (extremely survivable) and Def 14 no kd tough infantry, which is a collossal pain in the ass to reliably clear from zones. Your complaint about caster attachments is completely incoherent. Madrak has an inbuilt synergy with the stone scribe (it increases the radius of his signature spell) AND it offers him a discount to cast it...and this is a bad thing? 2 cost even ground means 1 cost with the stone scribe, a combination that would be over the top. Blood Boon is not just a 'fancy idea' and frankly, your position that it 'will never happen' is the one that smacks of theorymachine. I've triggered Blood Boon with casters that only have it on their melee weapons plenty of times, it's perfectly reasonable to use Madrak (who has it on a ranged weapon) to kill a contesting Gremlin Swarm, Machine Wraith, or, yes, an infantry model, and trigger blood boon off of that. Not to mention that if you kill something on your first attack, you get another boostable POW 15 into something within 4"...and I'm told those hurt. kill an IFP, richochet into a kovnik? a UA? a Khador jack for an easy 5.5 damage? all from 16" away, and for the same fury cost as even ground. It's not always going to be the right choice, but there 100% are times where you will use it.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 5:51:35 GMT
And I don't think so. Trollbloods are have low DEF by default, so global +2 DEF spell is fully accepted. Also, without the stone their units are too fragile, and they are have to be within the stone therefore limiting their radius of action. You said DEF 16 of Champions, but that's only applied on melee attacks. And Champions' Defensive Line already gives immunity to Knockdown. Although I am a Cygnar gamer and I never play the game without a model with Attachment at all unless it is less than 25 points game, I know that some warcasters aren't need for an Attachment to play. I know that warcasters are generally better than warlocks barring the resource management system. But, even consider this his play style is too boring. He is required to take the Runebearer to be playable. Even so, he can't do more than cast Even Ground and sit idle or barely cast an animus, despite the fact that he is designed as a frontline warcaster that must leave at least one or two fury points to survive. The idea of casting Even Ground by Blood Boon is no more than a fancy idea as well, even on the paper and got worse on the real games. Cast Snipe and boosting the attack roll already costs him 2 fury points and all you got in addition to have FREE Even Ground is kill a typical enemy trooper. If it was missed it goes worse. And that is only happens if the opponents lets you to bring the unit to kill. You don't choose the list and the moves in the game of your opponent. The opponent does. An idea that rely on your opponent is already a failed idea, so do the high risk and low return. Defense 14 (16 in melee) is extremely solid. It gets champions over the hump to where most guns need to CRA or aim to hit them reliably (most guns being Rat 5 or 6) which in turn means less shots coming at them, which means fewer dead champions. Against melee, defense 16 is in boost-or-miss territory, on models that have the armor + boxes to take a few jack/beast swings and come out of it alive (due to sanguine bond.) Minions don't have anything that hits that level of resilience (and again, execration doesn't give no KD.) The no-KD was not referring to champions. It refers to the Def 14, Arm 21 heavies, (extremely survivable) and Def 14 no kd tough infantry, which is a collossal pain in the ass to reliably clear from zones. Your complaint about caster attachments is completely incoherent. Madrak has an inbuilt synergy with the stone scribe (it increases the radius of his signature spell) AND it offers him a discount to cast it...and this is a bad thing? 2 cost even ground means 1 cost with the stone scribe, a combination that would be over the top. Blood Boon is not just a 'fancy idea' and frankly, your position that it 'will never happen' is the one that smacks of theorymachine. I've triggered Blood Boon with casters that only have it on their melee weapons plenty of times, it's perfectly reasonable to use Madrak (who has it on a ranged weapon) to kill a contesting Gremlin Swarm, Machine Wraith, or, yes, an infantry model, and trigger blood boon off of that. Not to mention that if you kill something on your first attack, you get another boostable POW 15 into something within 4"...and I'm told those hurt. kill an IFP, richochet into a kovnik? a UA? a Khador jack for an easy 5.5 damage? all from 16" away, and for the same fury cost as even ground. It's not always going to be the right choice, but there 100% are times where you will use it. No one forget that DEF 14 against ranged attack is very good, although not invincible. And didn't you forgot that Madrak1 already do the same by Sure Foot? Trollbloods are already access for Tale of Mist, which gives concealment, but I didn't heard that it would be extremely powerful. Haley3's DEF 14 Stormclads would be a thing but I didn't heard that it dominates the meta either. Although they are ARM 19 rather than 20, but DEF 14 would be much more important in this case. For some Dire Trolls with more ARM, I think That a 14/22 Stormclad with Temporal Distortion and Arcane Shield seems much, much more durable. And Madrak1 is a FURY 5 Warlock, while Haley3 is a FOCUS 8+4 warcaster. Even consider warcasters are generally better than warlocks, and Haley3 is one of the top end warcaster in the game, I think that some kind of advantage is needed for a FURY 5 warlock, isn't? Runebearer costs 5, same as Squire(an Attachment of Warmachine faction). So in such points it isn't so powerful to increase the control range as well as aid the resouce management. Also, even with the increasement, his control range is only 12", which is the standard control range of most warcaster and warlocks. And why it would be a problem to casting Even Ground by COST 1 for him? For FOCUS 8 Haley2 or FOCUS 10 Harbinger(although she is not so good warcaster right now) even for COST 4 is not that high, for they still have more focus(4 to 6) to spent. But Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock, and even COST 2 uses about a half of his fury points, and even if it is reduced by 1 he has only 4 fury points to spend, by put a mandatory 5 point tax, need to leave one or two fury points for the transfer after that, and being a warlock requires him to cast an animus at least once. It is sure that you are not even think once that he is a FURY 5 warlock. Don't just look at the top end casters such as Haley2. We are talking about the underdogs, rather than the game breakers. And your personal experience to actually make Blood Boon doesn't answers how to apply it to the others. What does they do whrn there is no enemy to hunt? And how to justify their 2 fury points spend by activating Blood Boon? It must be an additional benefit, rather than a core mechanism to run him. If you are bold enough to use it and gain the advantage then it have no problem, but if you have to do in in order to run him then it is very wrong.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 19, 2017 6:32:32 GMT
No one forget that DEF 14 against ranged attack is very good, although not invincible. And didn't you forgot that Madrak1 already do the same by Sure Foot? Trollbloods are already access for Tale of Mist, which gives concealment, but I didn't heard that it would be extremely powerful. Haley3's DEF 14 Stormclads would be a thing but I didn't heard that it dominates the meta either. Although they are ARM 19 rather than 20, but DEF 14 would be much more important in this case. For some Dire Trolls with more ARM, I think That a 14/22 Stormclad with Temporal Distortion and Arcane Shield seems much, much more durable. And Madrak1 is a FURY 5 Warlock, while Haley3 is a FOCUS 8+4 warcaster. Even consider warcasters are generally better than warlocks, and Haley3 is one of the top end warcaster in the game, I think that some kind of advantage is needed for a FURY 5 warlock, isn't? Runebearer costs 5, same as Squire(an Attachment of Warmachine faction). So in such points it isn't so powerful to increase the control range as well as aid the resouce management. Also, even with the increasement, his control range is only 12", which is the standard control range of most warcaster and warlocks. And why it would be a problem to casting Even Ground by COST 1 for him? For FOCUS 8 Haley2 or FOCUS 10 Harbinger(although she is not so good warcaster right now) even for COST 4 is not that high, for they still have more focus(4 to 6) to spent. But Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock, and even COST 2 uses about a half of his fury points, and even if it is reduced by 1 he has only 4 fury points to spend, by put a mandatory 5 point tax, need to leave one or two fury points for the transfer after that, and being a warlock requires him to cast an animus at least once. It is sure that you are not even think once that he is a FURY 5 warlock. Don't just look at the top end casters such as Haley2. We are talking about the underdogs, rather than the game breakers. And your personal experience to actually make Blood Boon doesn't answers how to apply it to the others. What does they do whrn there is no enemy to hunt? And how to justify their 2 fury points spend by activating Blood Boon? It must be an additional benefit, rather than a core mechanism to run him. If you are bold enough to use it and gain the advantage then it have no problem, but if you have to do in in order to run him then it is very wrong. - I don't think it's supposed to be invincible... And Madrak's spell stacks with Tale of Mists, so I don't really see your point here.
- On paper I actually think the Runebearer is better than the Squire now. His "+1 focus" works every turn and while he doesn't help hit (which only comes into play with certain casters), he can actually cast a spell himself if it's really needed
- That there are certain strong casters in the game is not really a good reason for making others over the top
- Late game, when you're actually charging things, you only need to boost to hit, so it only costs 1 and then you can still cast Guided Hand for 1 after using the Runebearer. And even when not charging, you really only need to boost to hit, and then you get 2 free POW 15 attempts to kill something, pretty sure that can kill some infantry, and you don't always need to cast Snipe, he's a midline caster. Also, don't see it as a "free" Even Ground, see it as a free 2 dead models while casting Even Ground.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 6:39:26 GMT
No one forget that DEF 14 against ranged attack is very good, although not invincible. And didn't you forgot that Madrak1 already do the same by Sure Foot? Trollbloods are already access for Tale of Mist, which gives concealment, but I didn't heard that it would be extremely powerful. Haley3's DEF 14 Stormclads would be a thing but I didn't heard that it dominates the meta either. Although they are ARM 19 rather than 20, but DEF 14 would be much more important in this case. For some Dire Trolls with more ARM, I think That a 14/22 Stormclad with Temporal Distortion and Arcane Shield seems much, much more durable. And Madrak1 is a FURY 5 Warlock, while Haley3 is a FOCUS 8+4 warcaster. Even consider warcasters are generally better than warlocks, and Haley3 is one of the top end warcaster in the game, I think that some kind of advantage is needed for a FURY 5 warlock, isn't? Runebearer costs 5, same as Squire(an Attachment of Warmachine faction). So in such points it isn't so powerful to increase the control range as well as aid the resouce management. Also, even with the increasement, his control range is only 12", which is the standard control range of most warcaster and warlocks. And why it would be a problem to casting Even Ground by COST 1 for him? For FOCUS 8 Haley2 or FOCUS 10 Harbinger(although she is not so good warcaster right now) even for COST 4 is not that high, for they still have more focus(4 to 6) to spent. But Madrak1 is a FURY 5 warlock, and even COST 2 uses about a half of his fury points, and even if it is reduced by 1 he has only 4 fury points to spend, by put a mandatory 5 point tax, need to leave one or two fury points for the transfer after that, and being a warlock requires him to cast an animus at least once. It is sure that you are not even think once that he is a FURY 5 warlock. Don't just look at the top end casters such as Haley2. We are talking about the underdogs, rather than the game breakers. And your personal experience to actually make Blood Boon doesn't answers how to apply it to the others. What does they do whrn there is no enemy to hunt? And how to justify their 2 fury points spend by activating Blood Boon? It must be an additional benefit, rather than a core mechanism to run him. If you are bold enough to use it and gain the advantage then it have no problem, but if you have to do in in order to run him then it is very wrong. - I don't think it's supposed to be invincible... And Madrak's spell stacks with Tale of Mists, so I don't really see your point here.
- On paper I actually think the Runebearer is better than the Squire now. His "+1 focus" works every turn and while he doesn't help hit (which only comes into play with certain casters), he can actually cast a spell himself if it's really needed
- That there are certain strong casters in the game is not really a good reason for making others over the top
- Late game, when you're actually charging things, you only need to boost to hit, so it only costs 1 and then you can still cast Guided Hand for 1 after using the Runebearer. And even when not charging, you really only need to boost to hit, and then you get 2 free POW 15 attempts to kill something, pretty sure that can kill some infantry, and you don't always need to cast Snipe, he's a midline caster. Also, don't see it as a "free" Even Ground, see it as a free 2 dead models while casting Even Ground.
I mean it is not so ridiculously durable. Even with Sure Foot and Tale of Mist Madrak1 was a worst warlock. The combination is already exists and cause no problem already. Actually he needs 2 fury points, one for boost and one for casting Far Strike on himself. Throwing Rathlok is a RNG 8 weapon.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 19, 2017 6:47:41 GMT
Actually he needs 2 fury points, one for boost and one for casting Far Strike on himself. Throwing Rathlok is a RNG 8 weapon. I know, that's why I mentioned that a lot of the times, unless it's turn 1 or 2, you probably don't need far strike (and in those turns you also don't really need Guided Hand), he can activate before his units and shoot something that's close or he can even go into melee with his 2" melee range, hit past his models, unjamming them and cast the spell for free. I'm pretty sure they want to incentivise using Blood Boon instead of casting everything on pure Fury.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2017 7:20:48 GMT
And the result is forces to use Blood Boon in order to use him well. I don't think that it is a sane idea to make it as the core mechanism rather than incentive.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 19, 2017 7:44:19 GMT
And the result is forces to use Blood Boon in order to use him well. I don't think that it is a sane idea to make it as the core mechanism rather than incentive. No, it gives you the option of using blood boon rather than just casting the spell. Especially if you wanted to make attacks anyways (and his attacks are reasonably strong, so you probably do) you can make your attacks, if you kill something you get a free bonus even ground, if you don't, you cast it for 2 fury. If you really, 100% need even ground and guided hand/to camp 2-3, then you don't rely on it. Just don't play badly, maybe, and dump your whole stack into triggering blood boon when you really need even ground + camp, and don't need to kill whatever you're shooting at. Haley3 is one of the strongest casters in the game, and if/when Coven/Denny1 eat a nerf, there's a strong argument she'll be top caster in the entire game. Bad basis for comparison. Madrak1 is a strong caster. I'm not convinced you want to be running him in SR2017, in the current meta, but he can absolutely run an extremely tough brick. He doesn't rely on Blood Boon to work, any more than Elara2, or Vlad1 'relies on blood boon' to work. It's a bonus if you can risk it not going off, and if you can't...just CAST the extremely strong, universal, range CTRL buff spell already. As to the range on Rathrok, again, I regularly get blood boon to trigger off of killing trash infantry and contesting solos with Elara2's range 2 melee weapon. I'm sure you can make it work. And in games where there are no infantry, you have an extremely strong gun which can take a column off of two jacks from a fair distance away, consistently. I'm not sure what else you're looking for, here.
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