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Post by ikeda on Oct 17, 2017 2:51:17 GMT
Can someone explain the fennblades+UA to me please? I don't understand why people are finding them so useful. I have tried a unit with my Griss2/Champ/Champ/Fenn list. And while they can sometimes force my opponents to spread out they've only been moderately decent at killing things I sent them at. Realistically I use them to block things/lanes. The fell caller typically sends them with pathfinder or MAT+2 and lets them essentially clog holes.
Is that their only purpose?
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Post by scottmcd on Oct 17, 2017 3:35:56 GMT
They are good at killing infantry with the mini feat to get a 13"threat on the charge and 2" melee range with cleave. Hard is a niche ability but helps against the popular cav units. A fell caller and a kithkar can really help by getting them to MAT 9.
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Post by gobber on Oct 17, 2017 3:56:01 GMT
If you want a fast melee unit, they're your trolls. Not much else in faction can play for threat ranges like they can. They're way faster than kriel warriors, have reach and the ability to kill some stuff unaided before jamming. Vengeance+spd8+pathfinder+reach is fantastic threat. With up to three attacks per turn per model they'll blenderize any infantry they get their hands on. Ps12 is a good damage buff platform. They really appreciate a chronicler; fellcallers are also helpful.
They get bonkers under madrak2 feat; 2 units of mat 8 (9 w/kithkar) berserk/overtake/reach/weaponmaster will kill the world, and the blood furied charges are great outside of feat.
Grissel2 gives them deflection and 12" charges though they're not much for her feat.
Borka1 flings them out 13" (+reach) on feat turn with mat8 knockdown attempts.
Good target for Jarl1's quicken.
Grissel1 gives them yet another attack, and calamity can help them against heavies
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tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128 
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Post by tomw on Oct 17, 2017 12:22:35 GMT
Fennblades for me are just a really good jamming unit. While they can get a bit of work done, it doesn't seem to be their primary role. In the double champs and fenns list you describe, the fenns should be scaring the opponent with their significant threat range, then getting in the way while your champs get into position.
I think that the chronicler is essential for this unit, even more so than the fell caller. Tale of Mists really helps them to survive on the way in, then Hero's Tragedy makes them even more of a pain to deal with once they're there. The 2" reach in their weapons also makes them a great target for Charge of the Trolls, if the opportunity arises.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 17, 2017 12:25:08 GMT
I struggle with placement and positioning and 10-man units just mean that there are more models on the board and more chances for me to screw up. Fennblades, in particular, have a lot of rules, including some that don't come up often, and most of those rules involve my weak spots. Hell, it was only recently that I started using their Reposition more.
BUT- I am finally almost done painting my Fenns, so I have been playing them more and I'm starting to appreciate what they can do. I still find using them difficult. I suspect that 12 medium bases in one unit will always be at least somewhat challenging for me. I also have more infantry to chew through now.
Say you're up against IFP. You have a decent chance of getting the alpha, but even if you're jammed in, MAT 6 is enough to hit DEF 12, and PS 12 vs ARM 18 isn't that bad. It is if you're talking warjacks, but against pikemen, you only need to deal 1 point of damage. You will almost 60% of the time. On the charge, the odds of a 7 or better on 3 dice are 90% or so.
It used to be that they never made their points back for me, but I would still use them sometimes to jam or gain tempo. More recently, though, I'm getting the hang of using them better. I think the next thing they can teach me is that just because I have higher SPD doesn't necessarily mean that I need to move very far.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 17, 2017 12:28:48 GMT
I know this is more of a metagame thing, but I feel like whenever I put Tale of Mists on a unit, it never actually matters. Either my opponent ignores concealment (Hunter, Eyeless Sight, etc) or their RAT or FOCUS is so high that they are not going to miss DEF 14 very often. Seriously, every single time.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 17, 2017 12:53:01 GMT
I know this is more of a metagame thing, but I feel like whenever I put Tale of Mists on a unit, it never actually matters. Either my opponent ignores concealment (Hunter, Eyeless Sight, etc) or their RAT or FOCUS is so high that they are not going to miss DEF 14 very often. Seriously, every single time. Getting Models to def 14 is one of those jumps that puts an enemy into the area of "I should probably boost this" Most Casters/Locks are Fury 7 so they need a 7 to hit def 14 that gives them a (roughly) 50% chance of missing on 2 dice. In my experience needing 7's is almost always going to end up in me boosting with my caster/lock. Same thing goes for ranged beasts. They are going to need to boost their shots to hit reliably as most ranged beasts/jacks are rat5/6 and that is for sure the boost to hit threshold. I have found while playing Mohsar, that forcing your opponent to spend recourses he normally would not have to spend takes away from them being able to bring the full measure of their army to bare. I play against trolls alot, sometimes twice a week. And while Def 12 is pretty darn easy to hit, def 14 trolls kind of gets into that area of "darn those guys are tough and hard to hit. Unboosted rat 6's on the average infantry removal tech is going to struggle to hit fens with a concealment buff. now imaging fens under madrack 1, with concealment from the chronicler and even ground from madrack, and suddenly you have an blob of def 16 dudes with tough no KD. |
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Post by Trollock on Oct 17, 2017 14:21:30 GMT
Fennblades are not super powerful, but they are powerful enough that they can not really be ignored. They are also fast, and that means they ask a question: Can you kill enough of these fennblades before they do a lot of work or jam you out of scenario?
Many lists will be able to answer "yes" on that question, and then the fennblades are not really a good unit. You could however "cheat" and help support them. Madrak 3s feat for example means that the answer becomes "probably not" in most cases. Then it may not be worth attacking them at all (and trigger vengeance) and all of a sudden, ALL of your fennblades got to charge. Sure, they do not blow up the world under madrak 3, but they hit just hard enough to matter against infantry. Against heavies, they may not do a huge amount of work (but they can contribute, especially against the low ARM heavies) but they may gum up the board enough for the rest of your force to get in to place. If you play Madrak 2 on the other hand, the fennblades WILL blow up the world if they get there, but getting there will be much harder.
For most of MK3, the fennblades have been ignored. At the very beginning (pre themes) single wound melee infantry were "worthless" because so many things that preyed on them (rifle core for example) and not enough things around that THEy wanted to fight (we had lots of jack spam). Then themes hit, and fennblades were tecnically allowed in BoH, but you were disincentiviced to take them. Now a new age dawns where they are allowed in a theme, and you are rewarded for bringing them. At the same time, there are lots of other themes to play against that take things that fennblades are reasonably good at killing. If the fennblades will stand the test of time is uncertain, but now is a good time to try them out. Madrak 2 and 3 are the most obvious places for them imo, but there are other options for sure.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Oct 17, 2017 15:19:01 GMT
In a list grissel2 list with double champs their primary role seems to be projecting a meaningful threat with good threat ranges that will protect your champs on the approach. Remember that with the UA you don't need to put pathfinder on them with the fell caller when they charge in and instead can put them up to MAT 8 which drastically improves their ability to clear out infantry or high def (usually low arm) jacks/beasts. They enjoy all of the buffs that the SSC can hand out and with 2" reach can take advantage of charge of trolls more often than most of our infantry.
Grissel2 isn't going to make them hit particularly hard but she helps them project further and makes them more survivable on the approach so as long as you're putting them on targets they can do meaningful damage to (they can be mat 10 ps 15 with all the buffs that can be stacked on them) I think you'll find them making up their point cost while also providing a good scenario presence.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 17, 2017 16:00:16 GMT
I love my Fennblades and one of my greatest disappointments in Mark III was that the meta turned against them so strongly. If you have trouble with all the bodies, I recommend running 3-4 as far as you can, and the rest gather outside of threat, maybe even hiding behind a forest, or just over three inches into it. My favorite part is after the big charge when I repo a third of them forward to jam, and the rest back up to charge again next round. That makes the opponent sit up and take notice, and the rest of your army gets to close with little threat, frequently.
Something I'm still working on is learning not to clock myself while planning out their actions, and yet leaving lanes and holes for the other models that want to come forward. My last tournament both games I played them my opponent and I got down to under five minutes before I clocked myself.
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Post by albertairish on Oct 17, 2017 16:38:36 GMT
I'm looking forward to trying them with pMadrak under Even Ground and Tale of Mists.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Oct 17, 2017 19:27:37 GMT
I feel like vengeance has been kind of glossed over so I wanted to comment on it. Its amazing how many games I will tell my opponent they have vengeance and they will spend 10 minutes trying to decide if they really want to kill them or not. Or they will measure to 12 inches and shoot me, then reposition and think they are safe. Haha sucker!! Its probably worth more in the psychological battle than on the board but is a great ability.
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Oct 17, 2017 19:27:40 GMT
I've found it to be pretty hard to get your points worth out of the unit. Like most things in our faction, I believe them to be over costed.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 18, 2017 5:44:03 GMT
Unless the opponent fields light infantry the Fennblares are there to be spent like water to control tempo and screen for other models. Tonight I got a couple on butcher 3, but that was mostly because my opponent was lazy and didn't do his research, although I had warned him about all the relevant rules at the beginning of the game. Anyways, my fenns scratched his jacks up and jammed them enough that I won on counter-counter-assassination. Grissel2 is mean. The point is, the Fennblades hardly killed anything, but that isn't always their job. They do a great job of getting in the opponents head and forcing him to work really hard to get his models to places he wants to be.
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