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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 17, 2017 11:31:41 GMT
Please don't use the IKRPG money to compare costs, none of it makes any sense and everything falls apart under any level of scrutiny.
Also, it's definitely true that pistols are easier to wield than rifles, especially in close quarters, as you just have to aim it rather than shoulder it and properly aim.
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Post by kanelbullen on Oct 17, 2017 11:36:55 GMT
dont forget ww1 have tank, plane, etc and cavalrie yep, even at ww2 panzer were attack by cavalrie charge. or the british empire with their gun again the zulu and their spear... history prove not because some have technologie then everybody have it I'm going to assume english is not your native language? But yes, during the 1800s, many places in the world had not caught up with the technology, and we all know what happened in those matchups, far different outcome than the charges toward machine gun fire in this game. I would'nt go so far to say they "had tanks" in ww1. Even though they technically did they came late in the war and mainly served as infantry support and didnt even perform THAT well. The polish lancer charge against tanks is just a legend. The question never was wether the factions have the resources for guns. Guns are not that expensive to manufacture, id say that a decent sword might be at least as expensive, guns are actually pretty widespread around immoren, considering how many units equipped with guns each faction has. Also, for example the zulus were an isolated tribe in africa. Factions in Immoren are far more connected and few of them are actually isolated, even if they are remote. Heck, skornes emperor was a former cygnaran king for a while! So that doesn't explain why the factions dont use guns, even though they are availible. And I would actually say that history proves that because some people have guns, soon everyone else will. How many combatants do you see wielding spears on modern battlefields? Every place that western powers invaded through history have rapidly adapted to the new method of fighting. Thats what my problem is. Guns have been around for some time in the lore and still even the nations that have them use sword and board instead. But other people made some good points about the logistic issues and differences to IRL firearms.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Oct 17, 2017 12:01:08 GMT
Guns, pistols, cannons Super sneaky dragon Everblight never thought about using shield so far. Slow down with thic rocket science
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 17, 2017 12:59:11 GMT
One problem with gunmages isn't the gun itself really (though those still have to be custom made) its more that ammo is expensive as hell. To compare, it, 1 bullet is equivalent to a day or rations.
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Post by galrohir on Oct 17, 2017 13:08:18 GMT
Please don't use the IKRPG money to compare costs, none of it makes any sense and everything falls apart under any level of scrutiny. Also, it's definitely true that pistols are easier to wield than rifles, especially in close quarters, as you just have to aim it rather than shoulder it and properly aim. Why wouldn't I though? Warmachine started as a PnP setting before moving into being a wargame. I know the costs don't make sense for the most part, but it's the only reference we have available and it's essentially canon considering it's the same development team. I do agree everything falls apart under any level of scrutiny though. And yes, handguns are easier to wield in close quarters. Pray tell why would I train my marksmen in only pistol shooting when a rifle is much better? Why do I want my expert marksmen to be better in close quarters combat than at longer ranges, where their strength is multiplied and much better used? The whole concept of Cygnar Gun Mages is predicated on rule of cool, from a military perspective they make absolutely no sense. Except Tempest Blazers, since Cavalry is better off without handling full sized rifles.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 17, 2017 14:42:11 GMT
And yes, handguns are easier to wield in close quarters. Pray tell why would I train my marksmen in only pistol shooting when a rifle is much better? Why do I want my expert marksmen to be better in close quarters combat than at longer ranges, where their strength is multiplied and much better used? The whole concept of Cygnar Gun Mages is predicated on rule of cool, from a military perspective they make absolutely no sense. In Mark of Caine there's a remark about the magelock rifle being a relatively recent development. The first user of the first rifle is still alive and active (albeit retired from the Arcane Tempest following injury). One possible consequence of that might be issues in training. There might be an in-universe magic reason - we don't know if the process of channeling arcane energy through a rifle is more difficult, harder to learn or simply different to using a pistol. If the older generation in the Arcane Tempest are pistoleers, trained in the process of magic through a pistol, that is what they train the next generation to be. It's also possible that the Arcane Tempest, like lots of other organisations (fictional and real) doesn't change that quickly. They have some rifles, but all their squad-based tactics and training is based on pistol users. Obviously that could all be updated in time. But it isn't just a case of changing their training and equipment within the ATGM. Shifting to longer-ranged rifles would also alter where the ATGM fit into the wider Cygnaran military. While that's being worked out, it makes sense to continue doing what generals and so on are familiar with, enabling the ATGM to be used effectively while someone in an office is working out how to integrate the latest technology into the army. Shifting to rifles does raise questions: should they be learning (or developing?) different rune shots? Would it be better to have smaller units dispersed more widely? How do they integrate with Long Gunners and/or Express Teams? There's probably different views on those issues, all of which affect adoption of newer technology.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 17, 2017 14:58:54 GMT
The whole pistol vs rifle thing for Gun Mages has been pretty thoroughly explained as Magelock rifles just being super hard to make. Until the new solo the only two shown in setting were on character models and were called out as very valuable and rare.
As for the rest, it could be that the sluggers were considered too complicated to make or too unwieldy to use. Maybe they couldn't get the firing mechanism to be reliable enough for the Cyclone and the Sentinel and they wanted to maintain standardization with the Trenchers. Breech loaders seem to be able to pack a larger bullet than repeaters or automatics since they tend to have higher POWs so the prevalence of warjacks, warcaster armor, and heavy infantry might bias them towards sticking with what works.
If we want to point to history there's plenty of examples of technology sticking around because no one has come up with something objectively better, or because the people in charge are stubborn. We're still using jets and ships designed in the 60s because modern designs haven't proven they're worth the upgrade (or have proven worse *cough* Littoral Combat Ships *cough*). From what I can tell the only man-portable repeaters in the game that can match the stopping power of a Hand Cannon or Blunderbuss are Caine's pistols and the Invictor Rifle-sword, which are precision crafted for a warcaster and made by the most scientifically advanced nation in the setting respectively.
And Skorne does use guns, they have Reivers. But since they haven't really studied alchemy they have to use gas instead of blasting powder; what powder they have seems to go to Cannoneers and Mammoths.
And finally, it's a fantasy setting with wizards. Science isn't necessarily going to go the same way as the real world; just look at the timeline. The first steam engine was invented before the Orgoth invasion almost 1000 years ago and they're still using steam. Even with the hundreds of years of Orgoth occupation that leaves 400 years since that no one has progressed beyond coal and steam. The Protectorate even seems to be sitting on oil deposits and it hasn't occurred to anyone to use that to fuel warjacks, just to slightly refine it and shoot it at people. Khador is still running Warjacks that were designed almost a century ago, the Iosians have myrmidon designs that are over 200 years old with some minor tweaks every couple decades. Technology simply doesn't seem to progress very quickly in the Iron Kingdoms until a genius like Nemo comes along to kickstart everything. They have trains and wagons but no one has hooked up an engine to a wagon to replace the horse.
Simply put, it's not the real world, it runs entirely on rule of cool, and for every question there's a potential answer of "because they said so" because the background is literally written to justify why things are the way they are so that we can have fun robot adventures with guns and knights and flamethrowers.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 17, 2017 15:05:06 GMT
One problem with gunmages isn't the gun itself really (though those still have to be custom made) its more that ammo is expensive as hell. To compare, it, 1 bullet is equivalent to a day or rations. How come we have money for Gun Mage ammunition, but not enough money for Universal Gobber Healthcare?
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Post by galrohir on Oct 17, 2017 15:15:41 GMT
And yes, handguns are easier to wield in close quarters. Pray tell why would I train my marksmen in only pistol shooting when a rifle is much better? Why do I want my expert marksmen to be better in close quarters combat than at longer ranges, where their strength is multiplied and much better used? The whole concept of Cygnar Gun Mages is predicated on rule of cool, from a military perspective they make absolutely no sense. In Mark of Caine there's a remark about the magelock rifle being a relatively recent development. The first user of the first rifle is still alive and active (albeit retired from the Arcane Tempest following injury). One possible consequence of that might be issues in training. There might be an in-universe magic reason - we don't know if the process of channeling arcane energy through a rifle is more difficult, harder to learn or simply different to using a pistol. If the older generation in the Arcane Tempest are pistoleers, trained in the process of magic through a pistol, that is what they train the next generation to be. It's also possible that the Arcane Tempest, like lots of other organisations (fictional and real) doesn't change that quickly. They have some rifles, but all their squad-based tactics and training is based on pistol users. Obviously that could all be updated in time. But it isn't just a case of changing their training and equipment within the ATGM. Shifting to longer-ranged rifles would also alter where the ATGM fit into the wider Cygnaran military. While that's being worked out, it makes sense to continue doing what generals and so on are familiar with, enabling the ATGM to be used effectively while someone in an office is working out how to integrate the latest technology into the army. Shifting to rifles does raise questions: should they be learning (or developing?) different rune shots? Would it be better to have smaller units dispersed more widely? How do they integrate with Long Gunners and/or Express Teams? There's probably different views on those issues, all of which affect adoption of newer technology. Actually no, in Mark of Caine the prototype rifle is the one Watts takes from the Quartermaster at the beginning. Lynch later on refers to Harbin in this quote: “Back when it all started, Eli here was one of the Order’s first riflemen. As far as records go, he’s still our best shot at a hundred yards.”Which certainly seems to imply Riflemen in the Arcane Tempest were a thing from the very beginning, which Kings, Nations and Gods tells us was more than twenty years ago in universe. So magelock rifles aren't new, and they're certainly not new to the Arcane Tempest people (and before anyone asks, Harbins keeps his old service rifle and it is indeed a magelock. They weren't using normal rifles or anything like that). So despite rifles existing for more than twenty years and the Gun Mages having access to them, the Arcane Tempest still chooses to train people by using pistols. As for new Rune Shots, there's no need: every piece of evidence we have says Rune Shots work fine out of a pistol, a rifle, or even Ace's modified cannon. This is supported by shared runeshots between the ATR and ATGMs in the tabletop; by the IKRPG making no distinction between them; and by Watts being able to just switch from pistol to rifle on a whim. As for how to integrate them into the army, well, I'd just make them elite sniper corps a la Widowmakers, since Cygnar lacks that. And considering their magical abilities they'd probably outstrip widowmakers easily (though there'd be less of 'em sine widowmakers don't have to be gifted.)
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Post by kanelbullen on Oct 17, 2017 15:26:02 GMT
The whole pistol vs rifle thing for Gun Mages has been pretty thoroughly explained as Magelock rifles just being super hard to make. Until the new solo the only two shown in setting were on character models and were called out as very valuable and rare. As for the rest, it could be that the sluggers were considered too complicated to make or too unwieldy to use. Maybe they couldn't get the firing mechanism to be reliable enough for the Cyclone and the Sentinel and they wanted to maintain standardization with the Trenchers. Breech loaders seem to be able to pack a larger bullet than repeaters or automatics since they tend to have higher POWs so the prevalence of warjacks, warcaster armor, and heavy infantry might bias them towards sticking with what works. If we want to point to history there's plenty of examples of technology sticking around because no one has come up with something objectively better, or because the people in charge are stubborn. We're still using jets and ships designed in the 60s because modern designs haven't proven they're worth the upgrade (or have proven worse *cough* Littoral Combat Ships *cough*). From what I can tell the only man-portable repeaters in the game that can match the stopping power of a Hand Cannon or Blunderbuss are Caine's pistols and the Invictor Rifle-sword, which are precision crafted for a warcaster and made by the most scientifically advanced nation in the setting respectively. And Skorne does use guns, they have Reivers. But since they haven't really studied alchemy they have to use gas instead of blasting powder; what powder they have seems to go to Cannoneers and Mammoths. And finally, it's a fantasy setting with wizards. Science isn't necessarily going to go the same way as the real world; just look at the timeline. The first steam engine was invented before the Orgoth invasion almost 1000 years ago and they're still using steam. Even with the hundreds of years of Orgoth occupation that leaves 400 years since that no one has progressed beyond coal and steam. The Protectorate even seems to be sitting on oil deposits and it hasn't occurred to anyone to use that to fuel warjacks, just to slightly refine it and shoot it at people. Khador is still running Warjacks that were designed almost a century ago, the Iosians have myrmidon designs that are over 200 years old with some minor tweaks every couple decades. Technology simply doesn't seem to progress very quickly in the Iron Kingdoms until a genius like Nemo comes along to kickstart everything. They have trains and wagons but no one has hooked up an engine to a wagon to replace the horse. Simply put, it's not the real world, it runs entirely on rule of cool, and for every question there's a potential answer of "because they said so" because the background is literally written to justify why things are the way they are so that we can have fun robot adventures with guns and knights and flamethrowers. You make some good points. I just hate hearing the "because the authors wanted to do it like this" or "because its cool" answers because they are obvious, easy answers and dont really answer anything on the lore side of things. I hope they would have made this issue more clearer in the lore for stupid nerds like me who can't let these silly little inconsistencies go.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 17, 2017 15:30:55 GMT
It all depends on how much you're willing to bend and fill in yourself. As far as I know they haven't explicitly spelled out why everyone hasn't phased out breechloaders, but we know that they don't have automated mass production and we can see that semi-auto and automatic weapons are usually lower POW than single-shot weapons so we can make some assumptions from there.
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Post by galrohir on Oct 17, 2017 15:36:27 GMT
The whole pistol vs rifle thing for Gun Mages has been pretty thoroughly explained as Magelock rifles just being super hard to make. Until the new solo the only two shown in setting were on character models and were called out as very valuable and rare. As for the rest, it could be that the sluggers were considered too complicated to make or too unwieldy to use. Maybe they couldn't get the firing mechanism to be reliable enough for the Cyclone and the Sentinel and they wanted to maintain standardization with the Trenchers. Breech loaders seem to be able to pack a larger bullet than repeaters or automatics since they tend to have higher POWs so the prevalence of warjacks, warcaster armor, and heavy infantry might bias them towards sticking with what works. If we want to point to history there's plenty of examples of technology sticking around because no one has come up with something objectively better, or because the people in charge are stubborn. We're still using jets and ships designed in the 60s because modern designs haven't proven they're worth the upgrade (or have proven worse *cough* Littoral Combat Ships *cough*). From what I can tell the only man-portable repeaters in the game that can match the stopping power of a Hand Cannon or Blunderbuss are Caine's pistols and the Invictor Rifle-sword, which are precision crafted for a warcaster and made by the most scientifically advanced nation in the setting respectively. And Skorne does use guns, they have Reivers. But since they haven't really studied alchemy they have to use gas instead of blasting powder; what powder they have seems to go to Cannoneers and Mammoths. And finally, it's a fantasy setting with wizards. Science isn't necessarily going to go the same way as the real world; just look at the timeline. The first steam engine was invented before the Orgoth invasion almost 1000 years ago and they're still using steam. Even with the hundreds of years of Orgoth occupation that leaves 400 years since that no one has progressed beyond coal and steam. The Protectorate even seems to be sitting on oil deposits and it hasn't occurred to anyone to use that to fuel warjacks, just to slightly refine it and shoot it at people. Khador is still running Warjacks that were designed almost a century ago, the Iosians have myrmidon designs that are over 200 years old with some minor tweaks every couple decades. Technology simply doesn't seem to progress very quickly in the Iron Kingdoms until a genius like Nemo comes along to kickstart everything. They have trains and wagons but no one has hooked up an engine to a wagon to replace the horse. Simply put, it's not the real world, it runs entirely on rule of cool, and for every question there's a potential answer of "because they said so" because the background is literally written to justify why things are the way they are so that we can have fun robot adventures with guns and knights and flamethrowers. I apologize for the double post (if this ends up being a double post, someone may sneak in a reply while I write this), but here it goes: As I pointed out, Mark of Caine clearly shows us the Arcane Tempest had access to rifles from the very beginning. They were also a thing back in the d20 times, so again: not new, not very rare, despite what the Wargame chooses to show. Regarding Sluggers vs Chain Guns, I am hard pressed to see what advantage a gatling would have over a maxim equivalent (besides rate of fire, of course, but that's only possible now due to electrical motors. Maybe the IK chain guns fire super duper fast due to clockwork, I don't know). Same for reliability, since rotary barrel guns are by themselves much flimsier than a single barrel gun (less fiddly bits on the latter.). The rifle thing we can put that down to cost, since I don't think a 1 POW difference is enough to justify the single shot rifle vs the revolving one. Massed, sustained fire is better than a single shot when dealing with infantry, which is actually what most battles in normal IK are. We just see the Warcasters because it's cool. To the rest of your post: yes, I understand it's a fantasy setting. That doesn't mean it cannot be consistent. Yes, they've used the steam engine design for more than 400 years even though (as you rightly point out) oil and such exists. Maybe they can't extract it, maybe they can't refine it, who knows. But the weapons, in particular, are a hodgepodge of weird anachronistic stuff even before you realise guns in Immoren are six hundred years old.I mean, I love the setting anyway, but lets not kid ourselves in that it makes any kind of sense, because it doesn't. Not internally, let alone when compared to our world (which is fine, we don't have big steampunk robots. Though we could probably build them). But just because we like it and can ignore the flaws doesn't mean they don't exist, or that we can complain about them.
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Post by The Trane on Oct 17, 2017 15:46:41 GMT
How come we have money for Gun Mage ammunition, but not enough money for Universal Gobber Healthcare? This. I so much wish that the next new faction will be a Gobbers rebellion where they rise up against their oppressors and start to wreak havoc.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 1:56:11 GMT
So, aside from the already much pointed out factor of "this wasn't made to make a terrible amount of scientific/historic sense", there's this one little factor.
THIS GAME HAS MAGIC!!!!!! "The Gift" is rare but not all that rare. Certainly warnouns are 1 in a million, but just having "magic" is like 1 in several hundred. And IK magic doesn't take decades in a secret tower learning from ancient tomes to figure out (though it helps). And it doesn't take half your life force to cast a spell (usually). Why have swords? To take advantage of magic that can turn men into iron cleaving monsters of mayhem.
Why are there a hodgepodge of weapons, many less efficient than what you believe should be? Because otherwise the models would look super similar. Because you're putting forth the identity of a faction in model form. So why is Khador less advanced looking than Cygnar? To let you know that Khador is less advanced than Cygnar. And Russian!
But really, most "technology" in the Iron Kingdoms runs on magic somewhere along the line. Maybe that's why rotating barrels are better than sluggers, because arcantrick clockwork allows for more accuracy. Maybe gun mages have 2 pistols instead of a rifle so they can change "magical" shot types between firings. Why haven't they developed automobiles? Because they have jack pulled/pushed carts instead.
MAAAAGGGGGGGIIIIICCCCCCC!!!!!!!!!
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Post by elladan52 on Oct 18, 2017 12:04:58 GMT
Gun Mages can also teleport bullets into the chambers, I imagine that does something to the normal development cycle of firearms.
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