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Post by souleater on Oct 5, 2017 15:45:51 GMT
I think your phone auto corrected "disagree". If so, why? Show your working! Have a discussion! ☺
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Post by krigsol on Oct 5, 2017 15:58:12 GMT
Like I said, the amount of models with AD is what makes it overpowered. With Ambush, there are more themes that grant it than models that have it natively. Either you can have them seeking game balance, or you can have it imbalanced but your favor. You can't have both. All but one of the Nephilim beasts are supposed to be melee. Azrael, Bloodseer, and Protector are all base ARM 18. Zuriel is 17. The Soldier and Bolt Thrower are odd men out at 16, and the Soldier is still supposed to be a melee piece. I think Dodge makes less sense. they're all DEF 12/13. They aren't getting missed very often.
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Post by cainuslupus on Oct 5, 2017 20:09:40 GMT
Like I said, the amount of models with AD is what makes it overpowered. With Ambush, there are more themes that grant it than models that have it natively. Either you can have them seeking game balance, or you can have it imbalanced but your favor. You can't have both. All but one of the Nephilim beasts are supposed to be melee. Azrael, Bloodseer, and Protector are all base ARM 18. Zuriel is 17. The Soldier and Bolt Thrower are odd men out at 16, and the Soldier is still supposed to be a melee piece. I think Dodge makes less sense. they're all DEF 12/13. They aren't getting missed very often. Except Soldier they are all good in their niches while not being workhorses. Even BT due to fury ineficency. They main problem is being shoot of the table which Unyielding doesn't change. In meelee they are dead with or without it.
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 5, 2017 21:29:55 GMT
I think your phone auto corrected "disagree". If so, why? Show your working! Have a discussion! ☺ Actually, I've just been using that word wrong this whole time. Lol. But, I'd like to think I did an OK job in my initial review. As I said, I'm not bashing the Hellmouth itself. Its a great unit (though I personally am not tactical enough to use it well), however I just do not believe it belongs in Ravens. It just does not fit in the theme force. I don't see the reasoning behind pulls equaling agility.
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 5, 2017 21:31:01 GMT
All but one of the Nephilim beasts are supposed to be melee. Azrael, Bloodseer, and Protector are all base ARM 18. Zuriel is 17. The Soldier and Bolt Thrower are odd men out at 16, and the Soldier is still supposed to be a melee piece. I think Dodge makes less sense. they're all DEF 12/13. They aren't getting missed very often. Dodge was for the bolt thrower, raek, naga nightlurker, etc. In my dodge version, I removed Azreal and Zuriel in favor of all our light warbeasts. However, another maneuverability option for warbeasts to replace unyielding with could be sprint. That is probably too powerful, however it still fits the bill of being a maneuverability ability.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Oct 5, 2017 23:31:18 GMT
There aren't nearly as many Ambushing units as there are AD ones. There are only around 9 units/models in the game that have native Ambush. There more themes that give Ambush (10) than units/models that have it on the card. There are dozens of units and models with native Advanced Deployment. That is why their thought is that with the change to Ambush, you're more likely to nerf someone else's theme than you are someone else's entire army. And if you aren't facing one of those theme forces or one of the few models/units with native Ambush your theme force benefit is useless, which is my other problem with both the current and former rule; whether or not that theme benefit even matters is predicated entirely on what your opponent brings to the table. Previously, the benefit did nothing for half the games I played with Ravens, now I expect it's going to be closer to 80-90% of games.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 6, 2017 12:53:40 GMT
All but one of the Nephilim beasts are supposed to be melee. Azrael, Bloodseer, and Protector are all base ARM 18. Zuriel is 17. The Soldier and Bolt Thrower are odd men out at 16, and the Soldier is still supposed to be a melee piece. I think Dodge makes less sense. they're all DEF 12/13. They aren't getting missed very often. Dodge was for the bolt thrower, raek, naga nightlurker, etc. In my dodge version, I removed Azreal and Zuriel in favor of all our light warbeasts. However, another maneuverability option for warbeasts to replace unyielding with could be sprint. That is probably too powerful, however it still fits the bill of being a maneuverability ability. If you have a problem with the Hellmouths in the Ravens theme, I would say that adding Raeks and Naga, let alone putting in a theme benefit just for them, into the Nyss/Nephilim list should be granted the same criticism.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 6, 2017 12:55:42 GMT
There aren't nearly as many Ambushing units as there are AD ones. There are only around 9 units/models in the game that have native Ambush. There more themes that give Ambush (10) than units/models that have it on the card. There are dozens of units and models with native Advanced Deployment. That is why their thought is that with the change to Ambush, you're more likely to nerf someone else's theme than you are someone else's entire army. And if you aren't facing one of those theme forces or one of the few models/units with native Ambush your theme force benefit is useless, which is my other problem with both the current and former rule; whether or not that theme benefit even matters is predicated entirely on what your opponent brings to the table. Previously, the benefit did nothing for half the games I played with Ravens, now I expect it's going to be closer to 80-90% of games. Which is why I'm much more keen on theme benefits that boost your army, rather than ones that take away from your opponents' armies. It's too difficult to balance things that take away from them rather than give to you. Having your army lose things for the entire game because of a choice your opponent made before you even matched up isn't "fun".
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 6, 2017 16:50:57 GMT
Dodge was for the bolt thrower, raek, naga nightlurker, etc. In my dodge version, I removed Azreal and Zuriel in favor of all our light warbeasts. However, another maneuverability option for warbeasts to replace unyielding with could be sprint. That is probably too powerful, however it still fits the bill of being a maneuverability ability. If you have a problem with the Hellmouths in the Ravens theme, I would say that adding Raeks and Naga, let alone putting in a theme benefit just for them, into the Nyss/Nephilim list should be granted the same criticism. How so? Having more light warbeasts in a theme of lights and lessers makes more logical sense than having a killer potato joining whats comparably the flash.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 9, 2017 13:51:55 GMT
Because you're shifting between two things in that criticism. Either you think that the themes should focus on function and gameplay, or should focus on fluff. Fluff-wise the Hellmouth doesn't fit with Ravens, but play-wise it does, as everything in the theme is high speed or advanced deploy with large threat range, and the Hellmouth starts halfway up the board. But Raeks and Naga have no real fluff relation to the Nyss or Nephilim. Lesser warbeasts have to be valid in Children to allow the Nyss Spawning Vessel and Nyss Beast Mistress.
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Oct 9, 2017 14:27:32 GMT
Just saying, but fluff wise ... also Forsaken, Striders and even Grotesques are just mutated nyss, with striders being closer to nyss than Nephilim Fluff wise, of course nephilim are the msot fitting thing to go in a "Nyss" theme, while the Hellmouth has no real fluff relation to anything. Looking at cryx however, there should be at least 2 more "generic" themes comming up, so maybe we will get an "infantry" theme instead of a "nyss" theme at some point...
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 9, 2017 18:13:56 GMT
Because you're shifting between two things in that criticism. Either you think that the themes should focus on function and gameplay, or should focus on fluff. Fluff-wise the Hellmouth doesn't fit with Ravens, but play-wise it does, as everything in the theme is high speed or advanced deploy with large threat range, and the Hellmouth starts halfway up the board. But Raeks and Naga have no real fluff relation to the Nyss or Nephilim. Lesser warbeasts have to be valid in Children to allow the Nyss Spawning Vessel and Nyss Beast Mistress. The fluff says “agile warbeasts”. With the exception of the teraph (who makes up for it with AD), our light warbeasts have high enough speed to be considered agile. Especially the Raek. But, even on the note of the teraph, two of the Nephilim are speed 5 anyway, so thats probably a moot point anyway.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 9, 2017 21:57:12 GMT
I think the theme of Children of Everblight is being missed. They aren't a fast lightning-strike force, they're a nyss shard. It's not about taking the stuff that's fast, it's about being the 'nyss' theme list. It takes blighted nyss models specifically because they're nyss. It takes nephilim specifically because they're born from nyss.
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 9, 2017 22:03:37 GMT
I think the theme of Children of Everblight is being missed. They aren't a fast lightning-strike force, they're a nyss shard. It's not about taking the stuff that's fast, it's about being the 'nyss' theme list. It takes blighted nyss models specifically because they're nyss. It takes nephilim specifically because they're born from nyss. Then why are lessers present? Mention of warbeasts in the fluff is super general. Fluff speaks of outmaneuvering the opponent. So, not as fast as Ravens, but still agile.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 9, 2017 22:12:50 GMT
I think the theme of Children of Everblight is being missed. They aren't a fast lightning-strike force, they're a nyss shard. It's not about taking the stuff that's fast, it's about being the 'nyss' theme list. It takes blighted nyss models specifically because they're nyss. It takes nephilim specifically because they're born from nyss. Then why are lessers present? Mention of warbeasts in the fluff is super general. Fluff speaks of outmaneuvering the opponent. So, not as fast as Ravens, but still agile. Too small to matter much, perhaps? I'm not actually sure. Lessers are available in all our theme lists, and they might just be an expected standard for legion. It could simply be because the list can include the spawning vessel and beast mistress, both of which depend on lessers being in the list in some capacity. As for outmaneuvering, that's what the entire faction does. Legion, as a whole entity, is a small, sugical, mobile army. Outside of something very specific (like Primal Terror), any army built around Nyss is going to be highly mobile and self-sufficient. That's intrinsic to their culture.
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