didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Sept 30, 2017 4:00:25 GMT
Some discussion points:
1.Free Vorkesh seems like the consensus, but I think Karax with free UA might be better. Before themes karax were better I think, because Cetrati are just still a lot more expensive and there main sell over Karax, better offense, is very frustrating to utilize. Charging means no shield wall. They're slower too.
2.No Anamanterax means a lot of sad warlocks. I was planning intensely on playing a praetorians theme with Makeda1, Zaadesh2, and Xerxis1. No auto knockdown retaliatory/defensive strikes? And Xerxis' small CA and low Fury was much eased by the SA's independence from those limitations.
3. Are double free Ty Comms really the best choice? By sheer point weight, sure, but they're I think over costed models when Orrik is a less frills choice to do the most important part of job. Also the flagbearer is an awkward piece of design. The Ty Comm should just be by himself and I'd rather not be paying points for the fb. What I'm trying to say is that I'd hate for everybody to ignore free Karax UA's and free Swordsmen UA's because that 18 free points is so all important. It's not like the non Ferox praetorians will ever see the light of day if they don't get used in this theme. That'd be sad, because they're good except maybe the kelterii.
4. Is anyone going to use Incindiarii or Arcuarii? If they don't in this theme they won't anywhere else. If they got a UA they probably would, but this theme cements that Cataphract aren't getting a Trencher treatment. It might be ages before those see UA's released. I don't think this theme does anything to get them played over Cetrati and Ferox. It's a shame. I'd have preferred a dedicated Cataphract theme that gave the non-shieldwallers some survivability.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 30, 2017 4:19:40 GMT
Fair considerations, though Fist was the one list in MKII I never had any interest in playing. I never got onboard the Cataphract train, aside for a brief wonderful time with Incindiarii Super Croaks and Snipe Sentinels.
Obviously, Makeda2 Jumpcats is ridiculous in this theme. More speed on the kitties and +1 to go first is amazing for them. I also love my Zaadesh2 in Exalted theme. I think Skorne is going to be a meta-bending faction for the first time since I started playing the game, and without a S-tier warlock to boot. Feels strange. Good, but strange.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 30, 2017 6:52:31 GMT
I'm not sure I share too many of your concerns. The lack of Derpy is so-so. It's a great model but it's not necessary. Also Zaadesh1 is available in theme, so you can spread out a bit. As far as which free items, it's very variable depending upon how you build the army. Depends upon the caster, what you want the list to do, yada yada yada.
I also say, don't look a gift TyComm in the Bearer. He's a decent combatant, his boxes always throw people off. He's the most expendable of contestors.
Oh, and I think there will be separate themes for Praetorians and Cataphracts, but far into the future. So far in fact the gave us this.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 30, 2017 8:59:19 GMT
Some discussion points: 1.Free Vorkesh seems like the consensus, but I think Karax with free UA might be better. Before themes karax were better I think, because Cetrati are just still a lot more expensive and there main sell over Karax, better offense, is very frustrating to utilize. Charging means no shield wall. They're slower too. 2.No Anamanterax means a lot of sad warlocks. I was planning intensely on playing a praetorians theme with Makeda1, Zaadesh2, and Xerxis1. No auto knockdown retaliatory/defensive strikes? And Xerxis' small CA and low Fury was much eased by the SA's independence from those limitations. 3. Are double free Ty Comms really the best choice? By sheer point weight, sure, but they're I think over costed models when Orrik is a less frills choice to do the most important part of job. Also the flagbearer is an awkward piece of design. The Ty Comm should just be by himself and I'd rather not be paying points for the fb. What I'm trying to say is that I'd hate for everybody to ignore free Karax UA's and free Swordsmen UA's because that 18 free points is so all important. It's not like the non Ferox praetorians will ever see the light of day if they don't get used in this theme. That'd be sad, because they're good except maybe the kelterii. 4. Is anyone going to use Incindiarii or Arcuarii? If they don't in this theme they won't anywhere else. If they got a UA they probably would, but this theme cements that Cataphract aren't getting a Trencher treatment. It might be ages before those see UA's released. I don't think this theme does anything to get them played over Cetrati and Ferox. It's a shame. I'd have preferred a dedicated Cataphract theme that gave the non-shieldwallers some survivability. I feel most enthusiastic about Mak 1/2 or xerxis 1 with cataphracts and ferox. They might not get the trencher treatment now but i get the feeling all that formerly 8 box infantry is going to end up theme forced back into 8 boxes via within 2 years or so.
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Post by jagius021 on Oct 1, 2017 14:59:53 GMT
Try not to worry about not getting the siege animantrix. Focus too much on how good one model is just cripples you, blinding you from the value of other models. I think this theme opens up a lot of room for list variability that will keep your opponents under-teched for the matchups. I'll be trying this out using a pair of free tycoms and 2 units of cetrati just to see how much ground these tanks can cover.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Oct 1, 2017 18:21:08 GMT
I'm not down on the theme, even though I do miss the SA.
In fact, I'm deliriously elated about this theme. I love it. I have zero, absolutely zero doubts that skorne as a whole is now capable of pounding the competition with thunderous force.
My concern is that the small based praetorians will be passed over. They shouldn't be. They are very good. Cetrati and Ferox are great, but instead of doubling up on them put in Swordsmen or Karax.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 1, 2017 20:11:31 GMT
I'm not down on the theme, even though I do miss the SA. In fact, I'm deliriously elated about this theme. I love it. I have zero, absolutely zero doubts that skorne as a whole is now capable of pounding the competition with thunderous force. My concern is that the small based praetorians will be passed over. They shouldn't be. They are very good. Cetrati and Ferox are great, but instead of doubling up on them put in Swordsmen or Karax. I had the opposite impression regarding Praetorians, at least the Karax and Swordsmen. My Makeda2 list has double cats and the full Swordsmen boat. I already loved Vengwance on them and Stay Death to keep the UA alive. Karax are great with Hexy1, and his nukes can offset the lack of guns. I think many people will find places for Praetorians, other than Keltarii, unfortunately. I want to like them, but the only role they seem to have is to jam and become soul food. Too often that in turn means they out pace the Extollers, meaning only the Zaals are in range to harvest. Maybe that's where I need to drop Zaal then, in MoW instead of Exalted. Drop Zaal2 since he doesn't need rock soldiers to do his thing.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 1, 2017 22:22:22 GMT
other than Keltarii, unfortunately. I want to like them, but the only role they seem to have is to jam and become soul food. Too often that in turn means they out pace the Extollers, meaning only the Zaals are in range to harvest. Try using them with Mak1 with Quicken on them. They jam really well, and the turn after they threaten all of your opponents support.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 1, 2017 22:34:47 GMT
"other than Keltarii, unfortunately. I want to like them, but the only role they seem to have is to jam and become soul food. Too often that in turn means they out pace the Extollers, meaning only the Zaals are in range to harvest. Try using them with Mak1 with Quicken on them. They jam really well, and the turn after they threaten all of your opponents support."
That just makes the issue worse. For me, their value is in jamming and becoming fuel for soul collectors. If they are so fast I can't get an AG, Extoller, or Hakaar in range, then it's wasted resources. If I run the soul collector models close enough, they get cut out easily. If I don't advance the Keltarii their full distance in order to ensure my soul collectors are safely within range, then they aren't jamming, which is their primary function. The Zaals can stay in range, but then I'm basically only getting full functionality out of them with two warlocks.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Oct 1, 2017 23:12:57 GMT
other than Keltarii, unfortunately. I want to like them, but the only role they seem to have is to jam and become soul food. Too often that in turn means they out pace the Extollers, meaning only the Zaals are in range to harvest. Try using them with Mak1 with Quicken on them. They jam really well, and the turn after they threaten all of your opponents support. Oh, this is exactly what I've tried, many times and recently. Problem for me is that they are too far forward to be under her feat usually. Also, def 13 in melee means their jam gets cleared out quite trivially. They are not unplayable though. Decent, but usually edged out by more optimal choices. Good UA could change that
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skormedlover87
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Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 2, 2017 0:25:18 GMT
To boozy: I have no idea what you're talking about. Pre-theme? That doesn't exist anymore. Extollers you don't need? Who cares? The only soul collection that stacks with Kelts is Zaal2. All others are stuck in Exalted.
To Didder: Make sure they remain in Mak1's control range? They can go 18" on the run, she walks 6-8 with a 12" control. What's the problem? Also she can charge 9 if you need the distance. She can't be shot dead, you shouldn't be able to kill her in melee on feat. I'm not getting the problem. Yes they're def 13, just like the cats you were otherwise going to jam with. During her feat it's worthwhile to put damage into the cats so they're all on 1 box. Not even worthwhile on kelts. Next turn parry + 13" walking threat should kill all the support.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Oct 2, 2017 2:15:26 GMT
It's not the first turn I have CA problems. It's the second. If they run another 18 they're 6 out of her CA, and she doesn't want to be 18 up all the time, so it might be more.
It's been underwhelming, they're not unplayable at all. I will bring them back out and try again though. I could be wrong
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 2, 2017 4:05:06 GMT
If you run 18" two rounds in a row you're basically at their end of the board... At which point congrats? My advice would be try to play Makeda forward as aggressively as possible turn 1. She should be able to survive shooting with Shield Guards. If you want bring Orin against spells. I look at this as an easy 15 points that should give me a stranglehold on scenario. If I worked a normal number of hours currently I'd test and put out batreps. But alas, no games for me until November.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
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Post by regleant on Oct 2, 2017 23:37:49 GMT
Don’t forget Molik’s animus . Makeda1 can “walk” 11” Turn 1. Other than Quicken, you’re not casting anything anyway, unless you desperately need Rush?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 9, 2017 3:41:57 GMT
Mak 2 double kitty list gone berserk. Use karax + UA as the front guard and keep the Tycom on them to make their walking speed 8 inches even if you shield wall. run kitties up the sides and water fall into their lines. Use Tyrant Rhadeim as your finisher for any pesky enemies or even their caster. Since the list won't require a lot of beasts you should have plenty of fury for revivals feat turn will pretty much guarantee a clean sweep on alpha turn. attacking from both sides with the kitties is ideal but not always possible. when not possible, use one pack for a screen and the other to run up at least one side of the board to spread their defense thin. cataphract are just too expensive without at least 7 boxes. Having 16 armor, they are pretty much worthless without some way to increase their survival, plus Vorkesh is not going to cut it in this case. Incindiarii might be worth it for the AoE spam, but the others are just wasted points when you could have a full fleet of praetorian swordsmen dealing auto damage to heavy jacks and cleaning out infantry hordes
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