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Post by copperflame on Sept 27, 2017 18:51:29 GMT
Oh, a piece of candy... look, another piece of candy…. Look, another piece of candy … (and Copper was seen no more)…. Zuriel was one of my favorite warbeasts but the MK3 transition found me leaving him on the shelf. Even with the inclusion in the CotD theme – that doesn’t change his rule set enough for me to be excited again. I like chillychinaman ‘s interpretation of his MK2 status – infrantry burniantor. RAWR! Now, I don’t know if I really like the Scythean as our beast answer to infantry but is more about Scythean tool kit. What I do agree is that Zuriel can be something else and definitely should be better than what he is now. I think the most simplistic/path of least disturbance to make Zuriel worth his points would just give him Gunfighter. At least this way, Quick Work would be able to work. Even if you made it an animus where it would cost a Fury to have it for the turn, it would go a long way to making him viable. Now, if we wanted to get a bit more crazy – I wouldn’t mind giving up 1 MAT for 1 RAT, since his PC is high and his sprays are part of what is supposed to make him fearsome. Dual Attack I like but I fear about how OP this could start pushing him (what if it was an animus? Then again, would that make any of our Warlocks broken? I don’t believe so but I would like to see what other, better, players than myself would say or playtest). I’m not sure what Kill Shot does…. On this – would big Z keep Precision Strike? If so, now we could be sliding into ‘too good’ territory. Not that I like Zuriel with Precision Strike with his package. On that note, if Zuriel is ‘meant’ to be a weapon specialist (from Rhyas)… if Zuriel could swap out his animus for the Scythean’s Grievous Wounds application… suddenly he is much more effective at his job. So my suggestions would be ‘Gain Gunfighter, swap animus for an application of ‘Grievous Wounds’. But o’shiny penny – Scythean? Oh, I’m glad you asked! I think he should have Overtake naturally (even with Fyanna – the 1 inch move doesn’t do much for him, or at least not that I have experienced yet). Or at least fold the Overtake into his animus as well so he can be a bit more useful. I hope he gains a spot when med infantry makes a comeback but without Overtake or something similar – the 2” Thresher doesn’t seem to be worth his point cost. Or maybe just make him flat out cheaper. IDK. If I had to list the top 5 models I would like to be redesigned: Zuriel Teraph Warmongers Legionnaires Lessers I’ve already kinda poked at that I like Teraph and a lesser degree (ha, I crack me up) the Stinger could use a RAT bump and AP on their tail attacks (in lue of Crit Poison). The Teraph could be cheaper as well. Counter Blast is a cool animus to me but it suffers from poor stats. The Ott master mentioned a list with several Teraphs with L2 (I did this back in MK2 and it was fun) that I want to try again… right now I’m focusing on Blight Wasps. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 27, 2017 19:46:42 GMT
copperflameKill Shot is Quick Work, but only limited to one ranged attack. The Mtn King has it I think. Gunfighter+Quick Work standard would probably be a bit too powerful for the potential 7 sprays.[Assault(1)+Free charge, 2 initials(2)+4 bought attacks(4)] While I admit this is pretty corner case, with SPD6, flight, and Reach, it's not out of the question that Zuriel could have 2-4 models in melee to proc Quick Work off of resulting in 3-5 spray attacks and this would be with minimal Fury expenditure. Finally, I had intended for Zuriel to keep Precision/Combo Strike. I feel that if you're paying heavy points, you should have something that can at least threaten heavies. Precision Strike would let him do that. Combo Strike is about ~12damage so you can take out 1 system on the charge. Onto the Scythean, I brought up and discussed with other before that the Scythean and the Soldier really should switch animi. With overtake the Scythean would really be able to /scythe/ through infantry, basically doing in melee what Zuriel would be doing with sprays. Meanwhile the Soldier would actually be meaningful if it could prevent its Precision damage from being repaired. I don't think Zuriel necessarily needs Grievous Wounds since on a full fury run he should enough damage to half-kill a heavy. Against jacks, this means you can almost guarantee taking out their cortex and since you power up and allocate at the start of their turn, even if they repair, it's severely disadvantaged, unless their a faction that has Empower on a stick. I would love if Elusive also gave +1DEF. I know its veering into Tenacity territory, but at least then Zuriel would be at a respectable DEF14 under it. 13/17 is probably one of the worst stat lines for a heavy. It's not quick to dodge attacks but isn't tanky enough to survive. 12/18 like Azrael would've been better.
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Post by copperflame on Sept 27, 2017 20:23:10 GMT
hmmm... see, this is why I'm not good at the game. I see now that Kill Shot would be a better option.
You and I seem to sync up on Scythean and also match up perfectly about swapping for Neph Solider. I hope that PP would consider this at some point in time.
Unfortunately, I don't think PP would ever allow Elusive to give +1Def+Dodge for the reason you just stated. It would be easier to adjust Zuriel's stats less the Harrier becomes our 'Elusive' bot. Mind you, Z needs love (as well as a few of or other heavy beasts).
Note! I don't think LoE is bad or our tools suck or etc. etc. etc. And yes, other Horde factions need more love than what we do. I just don't play those factions so I don't have as deep of Knowledge with them nor is anyone asking my opinion. I just want to make it clear that I'm not being a negative here. I think the few instances I have mentioned are models that see little play due to poor rules (stats, PC, abilities, etc.). It is fun to see if a few minor tweeks would make them viable for the average joe.
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Post by DanX-notsignedin on Sept 27, 2017 22:47:45 GMT
Zuriel's animus should be: Caster gains dodge for one round. May remove this effect to remove knock down from this model. That would be a worthy and useful animus. Zuriel is always getting knocked down and killed in my games  |
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 27, 2017 23:09:48 GMT
Zuriel's animus should be: Caster gains dodge for one round. May remove this effect to remove knock down from this model. That would be a worthy and useful animus. Zuriel is always getting knocked down and killed in my games Unless you can activate during /your opponent's/ turn, this won't change anything since by the time he's knocked down it's already too late. And if you can use it out of sequence like that, it's basically a get out jail free card. On the other hand, if you're opponent is spending the resources to knockdown Zuriel as opposed to straight up beating on him, this might be a meta issue. Your animus, assuming it works the second way, would be much more useful on warlocks, especially Rhyas in either form. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 30, 2017 18:55:41 GMT
Hope no one minds the double post.
Now that the themes are out and we still can't deliver Ogrun, I think it'd be nice to swap out Blood Drinker for something else. With only 5boxes, Ogrun are not living long enough to make use of this rule.
I propose he gain a *Action that gives friendly Ogrun models in his cmd range Ashen Veil.
Secondly, moving back to Legionnaires for a moment, is there base ARM15 enough to survive blast/incidental shooting or is ARM17 required. The reason I ask is if they are survivable enough at ARM15 it'd be nice to switch out Wall of Steel for Defensive Line so that they can be effective DEF14 against everything but magic plus the no knockdown.
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Post by davycannonhound on Sept 30, 2017 22:33:12 GMT
Hope no one minds the double post. Now that the themes are out and we still can't deliver Ogrun, I think it'd be nice to swap out Blood Drinker for something else. With only 5boxes, Ogrun are not living long enough to make use of this rule. I propose he gain a *Action that gives friendly Ogrun models in his cmd range Ashen Veil. Secondly, moving back to Legionnaires for a moment, is there base ARM15 enough to survive blast/incidental shooting or is ARM17 required. The reason I ask is if they are survivable enough at ARM15 it'd be nice to switch out Wall of Steel for Defensive Line so that they can be effective DEF14 against everything but magic plus the no knockdown. Ashen veil makes no sense to me... I'd say arm 17 is required. Arm 16 is just enough to shrug off pow 8 blast damage. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 1, 2017 1:58:09 GMT
Ashen veil makes no sense to me... I'd say arm 17 is required. Arm 16 is just enough to shrug off pow 8 blast damage. Point taken on the ARM. As for Ashen Veil, I got the idea from the Grotesque Assassin giving Stealth to other nearby Grotesques. I always assumed it was some sort of blighted dragon magic, because how else are you supposed to hide a flock of angry mutant elves? Thagrosh1 had Fog of War, so I thought that Ashen Veil could work. It was either that or hand out more Blade Shield/Force Barrier. |
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 1, 2017 4:55:45 GMT
Ashen veil makes no sense to me... I'd say arm 17 is required. Arm 16 is just enough to shrug off pow 8 blast damage. Point taken on the ARM. As for Ashen Veil, I got the idea from the Grotesque Assassin giving Stealth to other nearby Grotesques. I always assumed it was some sort of blighted dragon magic, because how else are you supposed to hide a flock of angry mutant elves? Thagrosh1 had Fog of War, so I thought that Ashen Veil could work. It was either that or hand out more Blade Shield/Force Barrier. Okay, I see your logic. I can answer your stealth question, as its in the name assassin (plus they're small based models, which helps). However, the warmonger warchief has no magic whatsoever, as compared to Thagrosh who has like 90% of Everblight's Athanc in his chest, so thats plenty of magical power there. So, while I follow your logic, I don't think it fits thematically. Also, Blood Drinker's main purpose isn't for healing, its to stop berserk chains before it hurts an ally. |
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Post by wkm on Oct 1, 2017 20:44:29 GMT
The Harrier changes you propose seem good and allow it to return to it's role in mk2 but like copperflame said earlier I think PP doesn't see the Harrier in that role anymore. I always see the Harrier as a nerfed version of the shredder/tenacity bot/transfer target played in basically every list during mk2. If PP wants the Harrier to play a defensive role it needs some help. What I'd most like to see is Sheildguard but playing factions where shield guards are at a premium worry about the cost and possible abuse with the Vessel. Shield guard would make me think before spawning the auto-shedder from the vessel and a Beast Mistress/Harrier/2 Shedders kit sounds good.
I'm sure the only reason they haven't been mentioned before was because you all completely forgot they even existed. But if we are talking lackluster pieces let's talk the Scather Crew. My thought was giving them 3 shot types on there aoe's 1. The current Ravagore shot version 2. A shot that would leave a cloud for 1 round 3. A corrosion typed shot with erosion
The thought is that the 1st option gives a bit of board control, the 2nd gives us some terrain that we can possibly abuse (I've been hoping for a way to get clouds out since the beginning of mk3 and this seemed a very reasonable way to do it), and the 3rd can give us a way to soften up jacks for our beasts.
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 1, 2017 21:20:23 GMT
The Harrier changes you propose seem good and allow it to return to it's role in mk2 but like copperflame said earlier I think PP doesn't see the Harrier in that role anymore. I always see the Harrier as a nerfed version of the shredder/tenacity bot/transfer target played in basically every list during mk2. If PP wants the Harrier to play a defensive role it needs some help. What I'd most like to see is Sheildguard but playing factions where shield guards are at a premium worry about the cost and possible abuse with the Vessel. Shield guard would make me think before spawning the auto-shedder from the vessel and a Beast Mistress/Harrier/2 Shedders kit sounds good. I'm sure the only reason they haven't been mentioned before was because you all completely forgot they even existed. But if we are talking lackluster pieces let's talk the Scather Crew. My thought was giving them 3 shot types on there aoe's 1. The current Ravagore shot version 2. A shot that would leave a cloud for 1 round 3. A corrosion typed shot with erosion The thought is that the 1st option gives a bit of board control, the 2nd gives us some terrain that we can possibly abuse (I've been hoping for a way to get clouds out since the beginning of mk3 and this seemed a very reasonable way to do it), and the 3rd can give us a way to soften up jacks for our beasts. Yes, I see your point on the Harrier. I'll probably just drop sprint and be done with it. As for your proposal for the Scather Crew, I rather enjoy your idea. I don't know if I'd say its a lackluster unit, as for 5 pts. it sure does a lot. That said, I definitely enjoy the shot type idea. It may need to become a 6 pts. then, but I'd gladly pay a couple of extra points. |
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Post by copperflame on Oct 2, 2017 20:17:13 GMT
Just spit-balling here... 'what if' ... if the Harrier is our defensive option, Shredder is our offensive option and Stinger is our hybrid/pentacle option: What would be ways to accomplish this without going overboard? Harrier - Blight Bite - any model damaged by this attack, receives -1 to attack rolls for 1 round.
- Blight Bite 2 - any model damaged by this attack, receives -2 to damage rolls for 1 round.
- Winged Cover - any FF model within 3" of this model receives +1 Def against ranged attacks. (I love the Shield Guard idea but I also agree that would be too good. Even if our current one is too expensive IMO)
Shredder - Gains Pathfinder natively, change the animus to give it 'Sprint' Stinger - I think we already covered these options previously As far as the Scather Crew - I have yet to use the unit. If it could do a series of different choices (like the AFG from Ret), it would go a long way to becoming something I consider. Honestly, if it was a POW 7 + AoE 5 with scather - I would rave about it. Do I think it is lack lustrous now... yes, yes I do. But that is weird since it is 5 points for a range 15, pow14 shot. Maybe I just need to use it with L2 and see what it can really do. |
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Post by davycannonhound on Oct 2, 2017 21:11:07 GMT
Just spit-balling here... 'what if' ... if the Harrier is our defensive option, Shredder is our offensive option and Stinger is our hybrid/pentacle option: What would be ways to accomplish this without going overboard? Harrier - Blight Bite - any model damaged by this attack, receives -1 to attack rolls for 1 round.
- Blight Bite 2 - any model damaged by this attack, receives -2 to damage rolls for 1 round.
- Winged Cover - any FF model within 3" of this model receives +1 Def against ranged attacks. (I love the Shield Guard idea but I also agree that would be too good. Even if our current one is too expensive IMO)
Shredder - Gains Pathfinder natively, change the animus to give it 'Sprint' Stinger - I think we already covered these options previously As far as the Scather Crew - I have yet to use the unit. If it could do a series of different choices (like the AFG from Ret), it would go a long way to becoming something I consider. Honestly, if it was a POW 7 + AoE 5 with scather - I would rave about it. Do I think it is lack lustrous now... yes, yes I do. But that is weird since it is 5 points for a range 15, pow14 shot. Maybe I just need to use it with L2 and see what it can really do. They aren't a bad option in CoTD |
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Post by wkm on Oct 3, 2017 9:10:43 GMT
Just spit-balling here... 'what if' ... if the Harrier is our defensive option, Shredder is our offensive option and Stinger is our hybrid/pentacle option: What would be ways to accomplish this without going overboard? Harrier - Blight Bite - any model damaged by this attack, receives -1 to attack rolls for 1 round.
- Blight Bite 2 - any model damaged by this attack, receives -2 to damage rolls for 1 round.
- Winged Cover - any FF model within 3" of this model receives +1 Def against ranged attacks. (I love the Shield Guard idea but I also agree that would be too good. Even if our current one is too expensive IMO)
Shredder - Gains Pathfinder natively, change the animus to give it 'Sprint' Stinger - I think we already covered these options previously As far as the Scather Crew - I have yet to use the unit. If it could do a series of different choices (like the AFG from Ret), it would go a long way to becoming something I consider. Honestly, if it was a POW 7 + AoE 5 with scather - I would rave about it. Do I think it is lack lustrous now... yes, yes I do. But that is weird since it is 5 points for a range 15, pow14 shot. Maybe I just need to use it with L2 and see what it can really do. Like the blighted bite idea not just for the Harrier but as "design space" for some current or future models. Anyway using your idea for a defensive Harrier here is what I dreamed up. Speed 7, Mat 5, Def 13, Arm 13, Flight, Countercharge, Winged Cover - FF +1 Def against shooting, enemy living models -1 Mat within 3" Blighted Bite - 9 any model damaged by this attack receives -1 Mat for 1 round. So basically the Harrier gets an upgraded annoyance that a. covers a larger area b. grants protection against shooting. The +1 against shooting allows it to contribute on the advance while flight & countercharge allows it to apply the -1 Mat where desired. I had played around with countercharge in my head but nothing I came up with made sense until I saw copperflames suggestion so when the Harrier connects it adds up to -2 mat to a target model. Since it's on damage and with lessers terrible base Mat I think this keeps it from being OP on a cheap model like this. Thoughts? |
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Post by HauRukh on Oct 3, 2017 9:48:38 GMT
Just spit-balling here... 'what if' ... if the Harrier is our defensive option, Shredder is our offensive option and Stinger is our hybrid/pentacle option: What would be ways to accomplish this without going overboard? Harrier - Blight Bite - any model damaged by this attack, receives -1 to attack rolls for 1 round.
- Blight Bite 2 - any model damaged by this attack, receives -2 to damage rolls for 1 round.
- Winged Cover - any FF model within 3" of this model receives +1 Def against ranged attacks. (I love the Shield Guard idea but I also agree that would be too good. Even if our current one is too expensive IMO)
Shredder - Gains Pathfinder natively, change the animus to give it 'Sprint' Stinger - I think we already covered these options previously As far as the Scather Crew - I have yet to use the unit. If it could do a series of different choices (like the AFG from Ret), it would go a long way to becoming something I consider. Honestly, if it was a POW 7 + AoE 5 with scather - I would rave about it. Do I think it is lack lustrous now... yes, yes I do. But that is weird since it is 5 points for a range 15, pow14 shot. Maybe I just need to use it with L2 and see what it can really do. Like the blighted bite idea not just for the Harrier but as "design space" for some current or future models. Anyway using your idea for a defensive Harrier here is what I dreamed up. Speed 7, Mat 5, Def 13, Arm 13, Flight, Countercharge, Winged Cover - FF +1 Def against shooting, enemy living models -1 Mat within 3" Blighted Bite - 9 any model damaged by this attack receives -1 Mat for 1 round. So basically the Harrier gets an upgraded annoyance that a. covers a larger area b. grants protection against shooting. The +1 against shooting allows it to contribute on the advance while flight & countercharge allows it to apply the -1 Mat where desired. I had played around with countercharge in my head but nothing I came up with made since until I saw copperflames suggestion so when the Harrier connects it adds up to -2 mat to a target model. Since it's on damage and with lessers terrible base Mat I think this keeps it from being OP on a cheap model like this. Thoughts? That seems like a lot of special rules for a 3 point model, that will never fly. I think at the very least, one of those effects will have to turn into an animus. My suggestion would be counter-charge, as there is already the Raek animus for that, so it cannot break any warlocks. Also 3 different def buffs is probably too much, and would not fit on the back of the card (most important factor when creating models! )  I think with a +1 Def for range and the normal annoyance aura he is fine. Thanks to counter charge, you can now move the annoyance aura around and make it more difficult for your opponent to simply stay out of melee with the Harrier. I also like the debuff on the bite as an idea, but it seems more realistic for PP to combine two existing effects (annoyance and counter charge). For me, counter charge animus + keeping annoyance seems a realistic expectation. Giving it a def aura against range would be the dream (and probably make him auto include in any list TBH). |
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