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Post by jisidro on Sept 17, 2017 11:05:26 GMT
Not sure how big an issue this theme will become but I fear that guns will be seen as having to deal with Khador Warjacks AND Cryx Carapace... And that shreds everyone else...
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Post by dazzla on Sept 17, 2017 11:33:30 GMT
Not sure how big an issue this theme will become but I fear that guns will be seen as having to deal with Khador Warjacks AND Cryx Carapace... And that shreds everyone else... I do not see guns being made more powerful in order to create a new balance. I think the more likely situation will be that there will simply be a number of relatively one-sided match-ups.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 17, 2017 12:04:34 GMT
I don't buy that guns have to be ineffectual to make gunlines non-viable. ranged elements softening an enemy up for a melee punch is a perfectly reasonable place for shooting. Gunlines are completely non-interactive. You don't need an opponent for that, just an Excel spreadsheet. -und_ed Dazzla got it. Skews are not-interactive, not just gunlines. A spam of warjacks with crazy ARM isn't interactive. A Cloudwall that can't be pierced isn't interactive. A spam of 100+ dudes isn't interactive. The reasonable ways to make gunlines less favored are the ones that the game has in place since years, that are scenario points that force both armies to move toward the centre. Good ways to make ranged game less prevalent are providing armies more pieces that are strong against guns or protect others models. Anyway, any direct mechanics to make gunlines useless also makes shooting useless. If your whole army can't be seen, or if you have tons of shield guards worth less than 1 point, or if your whole army has so much ARM that guns barely scratch it, what is the purpose of guns? There shouldn't be any army-wide gun counter, otherwise the game reduces just to who brings the best melee tools... Strange to notice that those ones are often the "unded"s, right?
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 17, 2017 12:09:28 GMT
There shouldn't be any army-wide gun counter, otherwise the game reduces just to who brings the best melee tools... Strange to notice that those ones are often the "unded"s, right? Hey man, I took the high road of not pointing out that it's the Cygnar players always defending guns-to-the-max. For myself, I haven't been able to justify buying into ghost fleet, and gunlines have chased my Cryx away from the MKIII after one too many miserable (read a"completely unenjoyable") games. I've had great fun with both Circle and Legion, but I'm finally excited to play Cryx again in MKIII, for the first time in over a year. I think a lot of swans just don't want to accept how awful it is to play into a well-tuned gunline. Regardless, this gives me a way to have my fun while you have yours. -und_ed
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Post by Aegis on Sept 17, 2017 12:20:06 GMT
Like I said, I play mostly melee armies or combined arms armies, so it's not that I particulary love gunlines or want them to be dominant.
The only difference between me and you is that I sometimes happened to be on the gunline side and while I felt it a boring style of play, I know that it's not all "easy-win and candies" like people with melee-army only like Cryx often depict it.
I'm all in to give tools to armies to deal with gunlines, but those tools should be models, not army wide big buffs or ways to ignore shooting. Giving Circle a cheap Shield Guard model is a great thing that PP should have done years ago. The Cryx battle Engine is another great model.
What is not great is wanting to have one-sided auto-win games against your opponent, and that is what you are asking. If shooting hadn't a place, Cryx would be the most OP thing on earth, since its clear that they are the best faction in melee. If all revolves into "move to the center and trade blows", cryx always wins.
The problem with people that play factions with almost no guns, is that they only see the good sides of guns and not the bad sides.
One-sided matches are always terrible for games. They are the death of it. As much as I don't want gunlines to be able to pull off onesided matches (and so I'm totally up for more anti-shooting pieces to be added to the game), I also don't want to see the opposite happen. People who ask to make other armies unplayable are just whiners who want the game to have only the elements where their army is strong inside.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 17, 2017 13:07:00 GMT
Not sure how big an issue this theme will become but I fear that guns will be seen as having to deal with Khador Warjacks AND Cryx Carapace... And that shreds everyone else... I do not see guns being made more powerful in order to create a new balance. I think the more likely situation will be that there will simply be a number of relatively one-sided match-ups. Amen? But I won't hold my breath for it...
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Post by mikethefish on Sept 17, 2017 13:21:51 GMT
I actually wish all themes just had powerful effects like this instead of giving free points. This list grants both and is going to be a miserable jack mountain I just wish themes were consistent. Right now, it feels like two people are designing themes, each locked in a different room and forbidden to talk to the other one. Also, why do some themes go through CID and others just get dropped as-is? OK, did you not read the insider? Time for a knowledge bomb here ALL Themes are going through CID. Even the ones "dropped as-is", as you said. Privateer Press simply decided to let people have their themes right now, rather than force people to wait. The CID schedule will continue as planned - the only difference is that we all get to play with the first draft versions for a while, untill they eventually get put into the CID.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 17, 2017 15:08:52 GMT
My first faction is Legion, Aegis. My third is Circle, where I surprisingly shoot more than I do in Legion. I'm not coming at this from a "I want all shooting to suck" point of view. I just want pure gunlines to be non-viable, as they create awful games (from both sides on occasion, but most often on the wrong end of the guns).
-und_Ed
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 17, 2017 15:12:01 GMT
I just wish themes were consistent. Right now, it feels like two people are designing themes, each locked in a different room and forbidden to talk to the other one. Also, why do some themes go through CID and others just get dropped as-is? OK, did you not read the insider? Time for a knowledge bomb here ALL Themes are going through CID. Even the ones "dropped as-is", as you said. Privateer Press simply decided to let people have their themes right now, rather than force people to wait. The CID schedule will continue as planned - the only difference is that we all get to play with the first draft versions for a while, untill they eventually get put into the CID. Funny how we got a new edition in which they have to rebalance EVERYTHING one year later. Funny how they keep releasing things while telling you "don't worry, we know it's imbalanced, but CiD will happen!!"... if you have to test them later, maybe don't release it till it IS tested? #tested4years
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 17, 2017 15:47:22 GMT
it's a valid complaint, benkei, but they've painted themselves into a bit of a corner.
If the game is meant to be played in themes, then there is no excuse for any model to not have a theme.
If new stuff is balanced through CiD, then it should all go through CiD before release.
One of these two things has to give, so clearly they made a choice. They had no perfect answer, for all the hashtagged reasons everyone loves reminding us, but they've accepted the position they're in and doing what they can with it.
-und_ed
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 17, 2017 16:02:06 GMT
I think people overestimate how good carapace is against shooting on base arm 17 box 28 heavies for 10. It does not magically turn them into Karchev Mad dog brick. Something like Shadow pack or Passage counters shooting harder. Vlad-tier of ranged damage backed up by heavy presence for dealing with arm 18 base jacks should still be okay. And then there's stuff like Nemo3 who just ignores caparace altogether.
I also think people extrapolate what they already hate about Cryx on their jack lists. It won't be the same. Denny or Coven can't do all their tricks while powering up 8 jacks at the same time. In fact they do nothing for jacks and such list would perform godawful. Cryx jack lists will be entirely new thing with casters that are not popular currently, no idea how good those will be.
I don't even think Industries + Fleet will create particularly bad chicken pair, since Fleet is quite good against shooting already. And if it does then Fleet is a problem list, not the Industries.
Theme creep is baffling though. We're 1 year into mk3 and some factions still don't have properly functioning themes for their main models, while others get everything and more. Where is Warpwolf theme? Where is Skorne infantry theme? Where is working Troll non-beast theme?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 17, 2017 16:03:28 GMT
13/21 is a crazy good statline into guns that is in no way thematic for Cryx jacks. They are supposed to be cheap, fast, and fragile.
Mechanically, they trade armor and boxes for: Good def Good spd Low cost Extra initials from tusks on some of them
With universal Carapace, they don't have much in terms of weaknesses. They can't die (or be significantly weakened) to guns. And they outthreaten most heavies thanks to their speed. Once they hit their target, killing them in melee won't recoup enough points because they are cheap. And Cryx heavies kill darn near anything once a debuff is applied, so they've likely already traded up.
What am I missing? How does Carapace not tilt Cryx heavies into ludicrous power?
Since it was released, people have Female Doged about Heavy Metal being unrestrictive and powerful. But Black Industries is somehow fine? It has the same or better benefits.
+2" deployment on each Cygnar gets up to 17 points of free solos Cryx gets up to 21 points of warjacks Cygnar gets repo 3 on solos Cryx gets universal Carapace Cygnar gets to take Sword Knights Cryx gets to take Cephelax and a Merc unit of their choice
And my point IS NOT that Heavy Metal is bad. HM is very strong. But Black Industries is better in almost every respect.
Cryx is not a weak faction, and I refuse to act like they need some crazy defensive bonus to run jacks.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 17, 2017 16:28:05 GMT
I think people overestimate how good carapace is against shooting on base arm 17 box 28 heavies for 10. Defense 13 as well. Defense 13 was mostly a meh bonus but combined with the Carapace it really requires hard hitting and accurate shooting all the time. A Vladed Rocketeer with a Joe Bonus can do 1 Damage 34.3% of the time, with a declining probability to do more every single time. If thats not a hard Ranged shutdown nothing else is. These are just previews. Every single theme will be released this september.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 17, 2017 16:44:39 GMT
13/21 is a crazy good statline into guns that is in no way thematic for Cryx jacks. They are supposed to be cheap, fast, and fragile. They are only one of these things, I'll let you guess wh7ch one
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 17, 2017 16:55:42 GMT
13/21 is a crazy good statline into guns that is in no way thematic for Cryx jacks. They are supposed to be cheap, fast, and fragile. They are only one of these things, I'll let you guess wh7ch one Two of those things. Speed 6 is pretty exceptional. Get over it.
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