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Post by tesoe on Sept 22, 2017 23:30:59 GMT
I expect them to do something well. Black Orgun do nothing well. Sure they have 5 boxes, they're also 12/15 with no defensive tech aside from tough, which is not reliable. Sure I can take 5 for 11 points, but what exactly are they doing? Why should I play this unit over literally anything else? Cryx has has a lot of good niche units. I can see arguments for Bloodgorgers, against things like Cephalyx or Winter Guard a single Bloodgorger has the ability to eat an entire unit if it can make it into melee. Blackbane's can tear holes through lists with no magic weapons. Bile Thralls can blow entire single wound units off the table if positioned correctly. These units, at their worst are basically throwaway fodder that accomplish nothing, but at their best can win the game on their own. What will Boarding Party actually do at their best? Hold a zone for a turn? Maybe kill half a light jack/beast. That's not worth it. Black Ogrun's claim to fame is drag. If you have a drag target and the ability to make those drags effective then they're uniquely interesting in faction. With black spot they can clear a 10 man unit from 14" if you're lucky. With dash and guided fire they can drag lights accurately from 15" away. Even without drag they're the highest in-faction mat unit, carnage and scything touch they hit at mat 9 p+s 15+3d6 with the right order of activation. That's enough to clear a high def, mid arm heavy. There are ways to use them. Especially in the new theme. They actually have the same MAT as Bane Riders.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 23:31:50 GMT
I expect them to do something well. Black Orgun do nothing well. Sure they have 5 boxes, they're also 12/15 with no defensive tech aside from tough, which is not reliable. Sure I can take 5 for 11 points, but what exactly are they doing? Why should I play this unit over literally anything else? Cryx has has a lot of good niche units. I can see arguments for Bloodgorgers, against things like Cephalyx or Winter Guard a single Bloodgorger has the ability to eat an entire unit if it can make it into melee. Blackbane's can tear holes through lists with no magic weapons. Bile Thralls can blow entire single wound units off the table if positioned correctly. These units, at their worst are basically throwaway fodder that accomplish nothing, but at their best can win the game on their own. What will Boarding Party actually do at their best? Hold a zone for a turn? Maybe kill half a light jack/beast. That's not worth it. Black Ogrun's claim to fame is drag. If you have a drag target and the ability to make those drags effective then they're uniquely interesting in faction. With black spot they can clear a 10 man unit from 14" if you're lucky. With dash and guided fire they can drag lights accurately from 15" away. Even without drag they're the highest in-faction mat unit, carnage and scything touch they hit at mat 9 p+s 15+3d6 with the right order of activation. That's enough to clear a high def, mid arm heavy. There are ways to use them. Especially in the new theme. Drag is pretty bad when it only works on Small & Medium bases. With black spot you'll clear a 10 man unit even better with Satyxis Gunslingers, The Hellslinger Phantom, and the Black Orgun Smog Belchers we've seen previewed and all of them can do it from 16" away. Sure you can drag lights. You can also do that with a Reaper having the added bonus of being able to drag heavies, and Reapers can actually benefit from Guided Fire, since the spell is Battlegroup only. Highest in faction mat is meaningless in a faction that swings melee defense as hard as Cryx does, especially when Cryx has models like Tartarus who can bring better models up to the same starting Mat. With Carnage & Scything Touch you can get a Bloodgorger up to Mat 8 with 2 P+S 13s that can pac man through units, or more likely you'll be playing Skarre1 where they're Mat 6 Pow 16s with Dark Guidence. The extra 2 power of the Orgun isn't better then the second attack, extra models, + relevant support that Bloodgorgers have.
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npe
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Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:37:28 GMT
Black Ogrun's claim to fame is drag. If you have a drag target and the ability to make those drags effective then they're uniquely interesting in faction. With black spot they can clear a 10 man unit from 14" if you're lucky. With dash and guided fire they can drag lights accurately from 15" away. Even without drag they're the highest in-faction mat unit, carnage and scything touch they hit at mat 9 p+s 15+3d6 with the right order of activation. That's enough to clear a high def, mid arm heavy. There are ways to use them. Especially in the new theme. They actually have the same MAT as Bane Riders. You're right, I forgot that riders got the bump.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 23:37:55 GMT
You know what else kills debuffed shield wall infantry, everything else in Cryx. Bane Warriors eat them for breakfast, Satyxis Raiders ignore shield wall, & Bile Thralls auto kill them 2/3 of the time if they're single wound. What makes Boarding Party so good at killing Deneghra1 debuffed Sheild Wall infantry? Why are they better at it than enything else, because if the answer is Drag, which doesn't always work since Man-o-War can't be pushed, that means you've debuffed the unit enough that an unboosted pow 12 can hurt it. At that point literally anything in the faction will do. If I can damage a debuffed Shield Walled unit with the Ogrun Harpoon a charging Bloodgorger's boosted pow 11 + unboosted 11 should be just fine. usable != preferable. Everything in the game that's released it's technically usable. Preferable is all that matters. Black Orgun are literally never preferable over anything else in the faction. Ergo I call Black Ogrun unplayable garbage. You're arguing semantics changes nothing.
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npe
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Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:44:53 GMT
Everything in the game that's released it's technically usable. Preferable is all that matters. Black Orgun are literally never preferable over anything else in the faction. Ergo I call Black Ogrun unplayable garbage. You're arguing semantics changes nothing. Not at all. One of the more interesting parts of the game is figuring out how to make the black sheep of a faction work. I get far more enjoyment out of winning a game on scenario with a helldiver or making a list with Ogrun than I do with playing the "netlist of the week" with Denny1 or the Coven. It's also how you develop a feel for the "bad" units to be able to figure out how to improve them.
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npe
Junior Strategist
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Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:52:56 GMT
Black Ogrun's claim to fame is drag. If you have a drag target and the ability to make those drags effective then they're uniquely interesting in faction. With black spot they can clear a 10 man unit from 14" if you're lucky. With dash and guided fire they can drag lights accurately from 15" away. Even without drag they're the highest in-faction mat unit, carnage and scything touch they hit at mat 9 p+s 15+3d6 with the right order of activation. That's enough to clear a high def, mid arm heavy. There are ways to use them. Especially in the new theme. Drag is pretty bad when it only works on Small & Medium bases. With black spot you'll clear a 10 man unit even better with Satyxis Gunslingers, The Hellslinger Phantom, and the Black Orgun Smog Belchers we've seen previewed and all of them can do it from 16" away. Sure you can drag lights. You can also do that with a Reaper having the added bonus of being able to drag heavies, and Reapers can actually benefit from Guided Fire, since the spell is Battlegroup only. Highest in faction mat is meaningless in a faction that swings melee defense as hard as Cryx does, especially when Cryx has models like Tartarus who can bring better models up to the same starting Mat. With Carnage & Scything Touch you can get a Bloodgorger up to Mat 8 with 2 P+S 13s that can pac man through units, or more likely you'll be playing Skarre1 where they're Mat 6 Pow 16s with Dark Guidence. The extra 2 power of the Orgun isn't better then the second attack, extra models, + relevant support that Bloodgorgers have. Good call on guided fire. I forgot it was battlegroup only. You don't have access to gunslingers, the hellsinger in theme now so the point is moot with respect to theme. I'm curious to see how the smog belchers turn out, hopefully they'll be put through CID to give both of them a distinct use. Again, preferable != usable. Especially with themes.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 22, 2017 23:59:30 GMT
Drag is pretty bad when it only works on Small & Medium bases. With black spot you'll clear a 10 man unit even better with Satyxis Gunslingers, The Hellslinger Phantom, and the Black Orgun Smog Belchers we've seen previewed and all of them can do it from 16" away. Sure you can drag lights. You can also do that with a Reaper having the added bonus of being able to drag heavies, and Reapers can actually benefit from Guided Fire, since the spell is Battlegroup only. Highest in faction mat is meaningless in a faction that swings melee defense as hard as Cryx does, especially when Cryx has models like Tartarus who can bring better models up to the same starting Mat. With Carnage & Scything Touch you can get a Bloodgorger up to Mat 8 with 2 P+S 13s that can pac man through units, or more likely you'll be playing Skarre1 where they're Mat 6 Pow 16s with Dark Guidence. The extra 2 power of the Orgun isn't better then the second attack, extra models, + relevant support that Bloodgorgers have. Good call on guided fire. I forgot it was battlegroup only. You don't have access to gunslingers, the hellsinger in theme now so the point is moot with respect to theme. I'm curious to see how the smog belchers turn out, hopefully they'll be put through CID to give both of them a distinct use. Again, preferable != usable. Especially with themes. But those models will be in other themes. And those will be released at the same time as this one. I'm not seeing a lot of reasons why anyone would want to play this one.
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npe
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Post by npe on Sept 23, 2017 0:35:16 GMT
Good call on guided fire. I forgot it was battlegroup only. You don't have access to gunslingers, the hellsinger in theme now so the point is moot with respect to theme. I'm curious to see how the smog belchers turn out, hopefully they'll be put through CID to give both of them a distinct use. Again, preferable != usable. Especially with themes. But those models will be in other themes. And those will be released at the same time as this one. I'm not seeing a lot of reasons why anyone would want to play this one. This theme does for offense what BI does for defense. Colossals especially benefit a ton from this. You effectively get a slightly weaker version of Morty2's feat every turn. Aiakos2 with a Kraken and Stalkers, Morty2 with a Kraken and shrikes, Agathia with a Kraken, scavengers and hellwrought. All of these become really fun and viable because of the accuracy boosts you get. Casters without a debuff like Skarre2 and Morty1 also benefit from having our jacks be not so pillowfisted. I really enjoy all of our themes and this one seems no different. Edit: it also helps the parasite casters with no def debuffs (eg. gaspy1, sturgis2, agathia) by making jacks more accurate.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 23, 2017 1:34:42 GMT
But those models will be in other themes. And those will be released at the same time as this one. I'm not seeing a lot of reasons why anyone would want to play this one. This theme does for offense what BI does for defense. Colossals especially benefit a ton from this. You effectively get a slightly weaker version of Morty2's feat every turn. Aiakos2 with a Kraken and Stalkers, Morty2 with a Kraken and shrikes, Agathia with a Kraken, scavengers and hellwrought. All of these become really fun and viable because of the accuracy boosts you get. Casters without a debuff like Skarre2 and Morty1 also benefit from having our jacks be not so pillowfisted. I really enjoy all of our themes and this one seems no different. Edit: it also helps the parasite casters with no def debuffs (eg. gaspy1, sturgis2, agathia) by making jacks more accurate. Black Industries is great since Cryx Warjacks lack defensive abilities. Since when has Cryx had a problem with offensive hitting power? Cryx is one of the top 2 hardest hitting factions in the game with Skorne. Black Industries is interesting because it brings something new to the faction that we didn't have before. Slaughter Fleet is more of the same with our current releases. Is it better for Colossals than Black Industries is, sure. Is it better for them than Infernal Machines, probably not with what's currently released. Even the Skarre1 7 Stalker list will probably prefer BI or IM for cheap Ritual Sacrifice fodder & the fact that Gang Fighter is pretty mediocre when the only things that trigger it are currently speed 5&6 medium based models with 1" melee. Making jacks more accurate with casters like Asphyxious1 doesn't make me suddenly want to take jacks with him. He still sucks at running Warjacks.
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 23, 2017 2:58:58 GMT
Black Industries is great since Cryx Warjacks lack defensive abilities. Since when has Cryx had a problem with offensive hitting power? Cryx is one of the top 2 hardest hitting factions in the game with Skorne. Black Industries is interesting because it brings something new to the faction that we didn't have before. Slaughter Fleet is more of the same with our current releases. Is it better for Colossals than Black Industries is, sure. Is it better for them than Infernal Machines, probably not with what's currently released. Even the Skarre1 7 Stalker list will probably prefer BI or IM for cheap Ritual Sacrifice fodder & the fact that Gang Fighter is pretty mediocre when the only things that trigger it are currently speed 5&6 medium based models with 1" melee. Making jacks more accurate with casters like Asphyxious1 doesn't make me suddenly want to take jacks with him. He still sucks at running Warjacks. Scharde pirates are going to be released sooner or later, there you have your small base model, and with some luck they could be good targets to sacrifice... anyway you can always take steelhead halberdiers for that. And with vengeance (granted by jussika, along with rise) suddenly bloodgorgers get 14" threat range against living models. Im not saying is a top tier tf, and yes, I was hoping bloodgorgers got gang, but is still not that bad, and playable IMO, we just need to wait for all the lnl spoiled units to come out.
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Post by gobber on Sept 23, 2017 3:17:56 GMT
Scharde pirates are going to be released sooner or later, there you have your small base model, and luckily they could be good targets to sacrifice... anyway you can always take steelhead halberdiers for that. Gang fighter requires friendly faction warrior models so you can't use halbs for that. From the phrasing in the insider it sounds like Raluk's marshaled jack could get gang fighter (certainly not OP) but most themes only grant bonuses to faction models so I doubt that'll appear in the final.
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npe
Junior Strategist
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Post by npe on Sept 23, 2017 3:36:50 GMT
This theme does for offense what BI does for defense. Colossals especially benefit a ton from this. You effectively get a slightly weaker version of Morty2's feat every turn. Aiakos2 with a Kraken and Stalkers, Morty2 with a Kraken and shrikes, Agathia with a Kraken, scavengers and hellwrought. All of these become really fun and viable because of the accuracy boosts you get. Casters without a debuff like Skarre2 and Morty1 also benefit from having our jacks be not so pillowfisted. I really enjoy all of our themes and this one seems no different. Edit: it also helps the parasite casters with no def debuffs (eg. gaspy1, sturgis2, agathia) by making jacks more accurate. Black Industries is great since Cryx Warjacks lack defensive abilities. Since when has Cryx had a problem with offensive hitting power? Cryx is one of the top 2 hardest hitting factions in the game with Skorne. Black Industries is interesting because it brings something new to the faction that we didn't have before. Slaughter Fleet is more of the same with our current releases. Is it better for Colossals than Black Industries is, sure. Is it better for them than Infernal Machines, probably not with what's currently released. Even the Skarre1 7 Stalker list will probably prefer BI or IM for cheap Ritual Sacrifice fodder & the fact that Gang Fighter is pretty mediocre when the only things that trigger it are currently speed 5&6 medium based models with 1" melee. Making jacks more accurate with casters like Asphyxious1 doesn't make me suddenly want to take jacks with him. He still sucks at running Warjacks. Cryx has hitting power *with* debuffs. SF provides a mechanism where Cryx casters that can't or don't want to provide a debuff can get a buff "for free". Gaspy1 may not the best jack caster, but precisely *because the theme makes non jack casters better with jacks* it becomes more interesting. A corruptor is normally a melee wuss, but at mat 9, p+s 18 I feel more comfortable sending it into combat. That's the whole point. Yes the current meta is all about ranged attacks, but the fact that BI and other themes like Destruction Initiative counter it so soundly I hope we're going to see more interesting and balanced list.
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Post by gobber on Sept 23, 2017 4:11:26 GMT
You don't even need to take more jacks than you normally would; the few you do just get a bit better. Cankerworm is effectively a ps13 armor pierce and ps15 tail before debuffs and can get super threatening if he manages to salvage a better weapon.
Might also justify deathripper>ripjaw; ps12 is at least likely to scratch a heavy without relying on crits; if it does crit it averages 12.5 vs a khador heavy before additional help.
Other things we know are incoming besides what's mentioned previously in the thread: Black Ogrun Smog Belchers (grievous aoe 4 gun which is likely a ranged scattering cloudwall of sorts) Misery cage (corpse tokens>focus) Dirge seers (3x puppet master, hex bolt attack denial, selfclouds)
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 23, 2017 4:59:01 GMT
Scharde pirates are going to be released sooner or later, there you have your small base model, and luckily they could be good targets to sacrifice... anyway you can always take steelhead halberdiers for that. Gang fighter requires friendly faction warrior models so you can't use halbs for that. From the phrasing in the insider it sounds like Raluk's marshaled jack could get gang fighter (certainly not OP) but most themes only grant bonuses to faction models so I doubt that'll appear in the final. I meant for sacrificig...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 25, 2017 7:17:54 GMT
What if thier drag became more reliable? Would they see play if they gained puncture on thier harpoons? If they gained puncture they would slaughter man o wars and reciprocators. What I really want is that their CRA could drag large bases and make 1 melee attack per CRA member in melee range. Being able to CRA heavies out of zones and plink on them would make them much more useful. Edit: have to kill the Man o war officer first of course They won't change the CRA + drag interaction for the melee attacks I think, but I think it would be great if they (and Arcuari) could drag bases one class higher (future proofing for possible small based units) if they CRA with 3+ models, then maybe 2 classes for 5 or 6 (currently impossible for medium bases). This way a min unit could do it, but would be susceptible to losing one of them, while a max unit would be more reliable at doing it for longer, the others could then still do their attacks with good positioning.
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