npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 2:16:55 GMT
Maybe we should start differentiating better between "not top tier" and "unplayable". These are completely different things that are used interchangeably in this community. Yea the only things in Cryx I would still classify as unplayable after all our CIDs are Helldivers & Black Orgun Boarding Party. They're the only models I can't find a single niche for. They're just not any good at anything. They're not unplayable per se, they're just very niche. Helldivers can be great against low rat shooting and for occupying square zones. The Ogrun are nice against medium base spam (eg. convergence stuff without shield wall). The problem is that neither are common in the current meta. Boosted sprays or hunter shots pop helldivers just fine and medium based infantry and melee jacks are either too uncommon or too high arm for the Ogrun to do much against.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 22, 2017 3:02:59 GMT
I would actually replace black Ogrun with bloodgorgers in the unplayable category. Either way the number of trash models in Cryx is very low now. Where Cryx suffers is staying power in melee, which is a faction design thing rather than the weakness of a model.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 3:15:39 GMT
Yea the only things in Cryx I would still classify as unplayable after all our CIDs are Helldivers & Black Orgun Boarding Party. They're the only models I can't find a single niche for. They're just not any good at anything. They're not unplayable per se, they're just very niche. Helldivers can be great against low rat shooting and for occupying square zones. The Ogrun are nice against medium base spam (eg. convergence stuff without shield wall). The problem is that neither are common in the current meta. Boosted sprays or hunter shots pop helldivers just fine and medium based infantry and melee jacks are either too uncommon or too high arm for the Ogrun to do much against. Niche is what I consider Bloodgorgers, Bloat Thralls, and Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. They're really good into certain matchups, but in the wrong matchup they're horrible. When they get their good matchup though, Bloodgorgers & Bloats into infantry Spam or Blackbane's into nonmagic weapons, you run the table & can win the game singlehandedly of the niche model/unit. There is never a matchup where Black Orgun or Helldivers will do this. They will not run the table against anything. They're not particularly great into anything. There's no list in the game that look at any Cryx list and says "at least they're not playing Black Orgun Boarding Party." Anything the Black Orgun can do well other models do better. Know what else loves medium based spam, Bane Warriors. There's only 2 scenarios where a Helldiver won't immediately die upon entering a square zone, and those are Standoff & Spread the Net, and the square zones in those scenarios are typically the scenario element my caster is holding. There is 0 reason to spend 6 points on a Helldiver to contest zones when you can just spend 6 points on 3 Machine Wraiths that'll do it better, and are available in all 4 of the currently known themes. I can't think of a single list or caster I that wouldn't rather dump the Helldiver for a Deathripper. I have never been happy to have a Helldiver in Mark3.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Sept 22, 2017 6:04:47 GMT
Yeah, maybe "borderline unplayable" was a bit harsh, but then again that's very much the same thing as "niche". I'm not here to talk about semantics, however. Ghost Fleet success story is maybe painting a bit too rosy picture of Cryx's current state ?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 10:12:15 GMT
Now Haley 2 has been nerfed Cryx is the strongest faction in this game, if you can't win with Cryx maybe you are just not very good. So what if you only have a couple of themes that actually work? so does every other faction. Who cares if your Black Ogrun Boarding Party don't see the table, Stormguard have not seen the table in 8 years! Get used to having some dross and just play what works.
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Post by darkshroud on Sept 22, 2017 12:30:54 GMT
Maybe we should start differentiating better between "not top tier" and "unplayable". These are completely different things that are used interchangeably in this community. Yea the only things in Cryx I would still classify as unplayable after all our CIDs are Helldivers & Black Orgun Boarding Party. They're the only models I can't find a single niche for. They're just not any good at anything. anything in IM is still confusing. bloodgorgers dont really have a place. so thats 7? units that are still shelf status.
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Post by darkshroud on Sept 22, 2017 12:40:22 GMT
Now Haley 2 has been nerfed Cryx is the strongest faction in this game, if you can't win with Cryx maybe you are just not very good. So what if you only have a couple of themes that actually work? so does every other faction. Who cares if your Black Ogrun Boarding Party don't see the table, Stormguard have not seen the table in 8 years! Get used to having some dross and just play what works. for the first time in MK3, we're actually viable. but raiders and ghost fleet were a thing! ok but at the time so was khador and armor spam. which means needing to take banes. which at the time werent even an option. so we hoped to get lucky and dodge that bullet. also, until your, cygnars, last cid, they were eleaping whole units off the table. meaning we needed to bring jacks. and literally before Black Industries, what did we take? uh...a leviathan, a arc node, bathroom? maybe dj? and they still died to eleaps... after dark host and now black industries. id agree we're strong again. cant wait to see the raider list. but after DH and BI, i cant see it being anything exciting.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 22, 2017 13:06:27 GMT
cant wait to see the raider list. but after DH and BI, i cant see it being anything exciting. You'll be able to take a mix of Bloodgorgers, all kinds of Satyxis and Black Ogrun, that huge and varied choice alone will make it exciting. If the CID for the theme manages to touch up the Bloodgorgers and Ogrun, as I imagine it will because they're getting new support models as well, and maybe tweak the crab jacks a tiny bit, then we really don't have anything left that I doesn't have a place.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 22, 2017 14:27:06 GMT
Now Haley 2 has been nerfed Cryx is the strongest faction in this game, if you can't win with Cryx maybe you are just not very good. So what if you only have a couple of themes that actually work? so does every other faction. Who cares if your Black Ogrun Boarding Party don't see the table, Stormguard have not seen the table in 8 years! Get used to having some dross and just play what works. for the first time in MK3, we're actually viable. No. You guys were viable before themes. You did not have obvious powerful combinations but you had some very potent casters and units/jacks. Coven is amazing and always has been. You guys are not just viable. you are at the top of the Meta. Like 36cygnar24guy36 said if you are losing with cryx the issue is for sure not the faction.
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Post by darkshroud on Sept 22, 2017 14:47:14 GMT
for the first time in MK3, we're actually viable. No. You guys were viable before themes. You did not have obvious powerful combinations but you had some very potent casters and units/jacks. Coven is amazing and always has been. You guys are not just viable. you are at the top of the Meta. Like 36cygnar24guy36 said if you are losing with cryx the issue is for sure not the faction. Lets ignore all the tourny standings the first year of mk3. k EDIT: and if you dont think haley2 didnt need that nerf you know nothing of game design. im expecting denny1 to get the same treatment next time cryx is in CID.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Sept 22, 2017 15:39:43 GMT
I don't see anyone complaining about losing a lot. We're talking internal balance issues here, nothing more. Please don't bring the discussion to a personal level. It's super retarded.
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 22, 2017 15:46:10 GMT
Lets ignore all the tourny standings the first year of mk3. k EDIT: and if you dont think haley2 didnt need that nerf you know nothing of game design. im expecting denny1 to get the same treatment next time cryx is in CID. I dont know if denny1 needs the same treatment... maybe erase the -2 rat and mat at most,I mean, her feat has no comparison to haley2's one, she had a 18" boubble of basically skip a turn, denny1 has a much smaller area that lets you do a lot more on your turn. I dont know how much of a "negative experience" she brings Still I admit is one of the most powerful feats out there. Regarding the other argument just let them cry, if they dont see how stormlances were absurdly better than any other cavalry or that haley2's feat was broken then there is not much to talk. (And the nerfed feat is still very good)
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Sept 22, 2017 15:47:11 GMT
I'm not a big tournament player, but I am sad that Cryx seems to have to lean so heavily on Denny1 Ghost Fleet. I wonder how well Cryx would be doing on the tournament scene without it.
I also still find it funny that we all trashed GF when it first dropped and we needed someone to show us how great it could be (Tim Banky has been a great salesman!). I wonder how many "trash" themes in other factions are similarly waiting to be discovered.
I am pleased to see the variety of lists now offered by our themes. I don't play GF, but I enjoy DH and IM and I think I'll enjoy BI too.
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Post by darkshroud on Sept 22, 2017 15:51:55 GMT
I'm not a big tournament player, but I am sad that Cryx seems to have to lean so heavily on Denny1 Ghost Fleet. I wonder how well Cryx would be doing on the tournament scene without it. I also still find it funny that we all trashed GF when it first dropped and we needed someone to show us how great it could be (Tim Banky has been a great salesman!). I wonder how many "trash" themes in other factions are similarly waiting to be discovered. I am pleased to see the variety of lists now offered by our themes. I don't play GF, but I enjoy DH and IM and I think I'll enjoy BI too. DH eclipsed GF at wtc. so id imagine the tourney scene would do fine. but, give it a year. maybe thas because it just came out and its the new thing and people were expecting others to tech against it.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 22, 2017 16:11:29 GMT
No. You guys were viable before themes. You did not have obvious powerful combinations but you had some very potent casters and units/jacks. Coven is amazing and always has been. You guys are not just viable. you are at the top of the Meta. Like 36cygnar24guy36 said if you are losing with cryx the issue is for sure not the faction. Lets ignore all the tourny standings the first year of mk3. k EDIT: and if you dont think haley2 didnt need that nerf you know nothing of game design. im expecting denny1 to get the same treatment next time cryx is in CID. I never said haley 2 did not need a nerf... Here is all the list of cryx players doing well Early Mk3 Iron Gauntlet: Aug 6th 2016 -1st place: Aaron Wale Blood and Gears: Oct 22nd 2016 -1st Garnett Germain Scottish Masters Oct 29th 2016 -1st William Cruickshanks Clogcon Masters Nov 18th 2016 -2nd Sverre Reikvam Flying Execution Masters Jan 29 2017 - 1st Konrad Sosnowski ATC March 4th 2017 -2nd Brandon Andrews Thats just discount games. Cryx was actually working pretty well before ghost fleet strolled along and thats not counting team events. You don't need to be placing top 3 at every tourney to be considered viable.
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