|
Post by darkshroud on Sept 22, 2017 16:34:38 GMT
Lets ignore all the tourny standings the first year of mk3. k EDIT: and if you dont think haley2 didnt need that nerf you know nothing of game design. im expecting denny1 to get the same treatment next time cryx is in CID. I never said haley 2 did not need a nerf... Here is all the list of cryx players doing well Early Mk3 Iron Gauntlet: Aug 6th 2016 -1st place: Aaron Wale Blood and Gears: Oct 22nd 2016 -1st Garnett Germain Scottish Masters Oct 29th 2016 -1st William Cruickshanks Clogcon Masters Nov 18th 2016 -2nd Sverre Reikvam Flying Execution Masters Jan 29 2017 - 1st Konrad Sosnowski ATC March 4th 2017 -2nd Brandon Andrews Thats just discount games. Cryx was actually working pretty well before ghost fleet strolled along and thats not counting team events. You don't need to be placing top 3 at every tourney to be considered viable. and if those were the only tournaments held during that time, id agree. but you forgot to mention there was a disproportionate amount of events were we were completely absent. so sure. there will be those few who stuck through it and maybe actually won. mainly due to people not teching for cryx like they needed to in mk2.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 22, 2017 16:58:33 GMT
darkshroud Alright well we are derailing the thread. I was just trying to show that cryx can win tournaments and to be fair, that timeframe of top placings is actually pretty impressive for a faction that was apparently not viable in early mk 3. Anyway I am done causing conflict, continue with your lives!
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 21:06:52 GMT
They're not unplayable per se, they're just very niche. Helldivers can be great against low rat shooting and for occupying square zones. The Ogrun are nice against medium base spam (eg. convergence stuff without shield wall). The problem is that neither are common in the current meta. Boosted sprays or hunter shots pop helldivers just fine and medium based infantry and melee jacks are either too uncommon or too high arm for the Ogrun to do much against. Niche is what I consider Bloodgorgers, Bloat Thralls, and Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. They're really good into certain matchups, but in the wrong matchup they're horrible. When they get their good matchup though, Bloodgorgers & Bloats into infantry Spam or Blackbane's into nonmagic weapons, you run the table & can win the game singlehandedly of the niche model/unit. There is never a matchup where Black Orgun or Helldivers will do this. They will not run the table against anything. They're not particularly great into anything. There's no list in the game that look at any Cryx list and says "at least they're not playing Black Orgun Boarding Party." Anything the Black Orgun can do well other models do better. Know what else loves medium based spam, Bane Warriors. There's only 2 scenarios where a Helldiver won't immediately die upon entering a square zone, and those are Standoff & Spread the Net, and the square zones in those scenarios are typically the scenario element my caster is holding. There is 0 reason to spend 6 points on a Helldiver to contest zones when you can just spend 6 points on 3 Machine Wraiths that'll do it better, and are available in all 4 of the currently known themes. I can't think of a single list or caster I that wouldn't rather dump the Helldiver for a Deathripper. I have never been happy to have a Helldiver in Mark3. You're confusing "playable" with "preferable". While there may be *preferable* options, there are (niche) situations where you can play either of them and expect a return on your investment. This actually becomes interesting in themes (like the pirates that dropped today) where you can't take anything else.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 21:42:44 GMT
Niche is what I consider Bloodgorgers, Bloat Thralls, and Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. They're really good into certain matchups, but in the wrong matchup they're horrible. When they get their good matchup though, Bloodgorgers & Bloats into infantry Spam or Blackbane's into nonmagic weapons, you run the table & can win the game singlehandedly of the niche model/unit. There is never a matchup where Black Orgun or Helldivers will do this. They will not run the table against anything. They're not particularly great into anything. There's no list in the game that look at any Cryx list and says "at least they're not playing Black Orgun Boarding Party." Anything the Black Orgun can do well other models do better. Know what else loves medium based spam, Bane Warriors. There's only 2 scenarios where a Helldiver won't immediately die upon entering a square zone, and those are Standoff & Spread the Net, and the square zones in those scenarios are typically the scenario element my caster is holding. There is 0 reason to spend 6 points on a Helldiver to contest zones when you can just spend 6 points on 3 Machine Wraiths that'll do it better, and are available in all 4 of the currently known themes. I can't think of a single list or caster I that wouldn't rather dump the Helldiver for a Deathripper. I have never been happy to have a Helldiver in Mark3. You're confusing "playable" with "preferable". While there may be *preferable* options, there are (niche) situations where you can play either of them and expect a return on your investment. This actually becomes interesting in themes (like the pirates that dropped today) where you can't take anything else. There's plenty I can take in Slaughter Fleet that even with what's out now I would never bring Black Ogrun. I understand what you're saying, what I'm saying is there are literally no situations where I expect a return on investment for Helldivers & Boarding Party.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 22, 2017 22:23:53 GMT
Could someone explain to me what's wrong about a t man 11 point unit with boxes? I understand if they don't have a outdoors but at that cheap what can you honestly expect?
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 22:35:53 GMT
Could someone explain to me what's wrong about a t man 11 point unit with boxes? I understand if they don't have a outdoors but at that cheap what can you honestly expect? They're interesting with Skarre2 and blackspot. Potentially with Skarre3 and guided fire. They're not the best unit in the world but they have their uses.
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 22:38:18 GMT
You're confusing "playable" with "preferable". While there may be *preferable* options, there are (niche) situations where you can play either of them and expect a return on your investment. This actually becomes interesting in themes (like the pirates that dropped today) where you can't take anything else. There's plenty I can take in Slaughter Fleet that even with what's out now I would never bring Black Ogrun. I understand what you're saying, what I'm saying is there are literally no situations where I expect a return on investment for Helldivers & Boarding Party. Against debuffed shield wall infantry Ogrun can clear zones and break shield wall. I've used helldivers to pretty good effect in square zone control against gunlines. This is primarily against legion, but it's a use.
|
|
|
Post by tesoe on Sept 22, 2017 22:41:04 GMT
Could someone explain to me what's wrong about a t man 11 point unit with boxes? I understand if they don't have a outdoors but at that cheap what can you honestly expect? Basically everything. Go read their card.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 22:55:17 GMT
Could someone explain to me what's wrong about a t man 11 point unit with boxes? I understand if they don't have a outdoors but at that cheap what can you honestly expect? I expect them to do something well. Black Orgun do nothing well. Sure they have 5 boxes, they're also 12/15 with no defensive tech aside from tough, which is not reliable. Sure I can take 5 for 11 points, but what exactly are they doing? Why should I play this unit over literally anything else? Cryx has has a lot of good niche units. I can see arguments for Bloodgorgers, against things like Cephalyx or Winter Guard a single Bloodgorger has the ability to eat an entire unit if it can make it into melee. Blackbane's can tear holes through lists with no magic weapons. Bile Thralls can blow entire single wound units off the table if positioned correctly. These units, at their worst are basically throwaway fodder that accomplish nothing, but at their best can win the game on their own. What will Boarding Party actually do at their best? Hold a zone for a turn? Maybe kill half a light jack/beast. That's not worth it.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Sept 22, 2017 23:10:27 GMT
There's plenty I can take in Slaughter Fleet that even with what's out now I would never bring Black Ogrun. I understand what you're saying, what I'm saying is there are literally no situations where I expect a return on investment for Helldivers & Boarding Party. Against debuffed shield wall infantry Ogrun can clear zones and break shield wall. I've used helldivers to pretty good effect in square zone control against gunlines. This is primarily against legion, but it's a use. You know what else kills debuffed shield wall infantry, everything else in Cryx. Bane Warriors eat them for breakfast, Satyxis Raiders ignore shield wall, & Bile Thralls auto kill them 2/3 of the time if they're single wound. What makes Boarding Party so good at killing Deneghra1 debuffed Sheild Wall infantry? Why are they better at it than enything else, because if the answer is Drag, which doesn't always work since Man-o-War can't be pushed, that means you've debuffed the unit enough that an unboosted pow 12 can hurt it. At that point literally anything in the faction will do. If I can damage a debuffed Shield Walled unit with the Ogrun Harpoon a charging Bloodgorger's boosted pow 11 + unboosted 11 should be just fine.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 22, 2017 23:11:33 GMT
What if thier drag became more reliable? Would they see play if they gained puncture on thier harpoons?
|
|
|
Post by tesoe on Sept 22, 2017 23:16:13 GMT
What if thier drag became more reliable? Would they see play if they gained puncture on thier harpoons? A five man unit that auto killed single wound infantry with a 14 threat range. I might take that.
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:18:32 GMT
Could someone explain to me what's wrong about a t man 11 point unit with boxes? I understand if they don't have a outdoors but at that cheap what can you honestly expect? I expect them to do something well. Black Orgun do nothing well. Sure they have 5 boxes, they're also 12/15 with no defensive tech aside from tough, which is not reliable. Sure I can take 5 for 11 points, but what exactly are they doing? Why should I play this unit over literally anything else? Cryx has has a lot of good niche units. I can see arguments for Bloodgorgers, against things like Cephalyx or Winter Guard a single Bloodgorger has the ability to eat an entire unit if it can make it into melee. Blackbane's can tear holes through lists with no magic weapons. Bile Thralls can blow entire single wound units off the table if positioned correctly. These units, at their worst are basically throwaway fodder that accomplish nothing, but at their best can win the game on their own. What will Boarding Party actually do at their best? Hold a zone for a turn? Maybe kill half a light jack/beast. That's not worth it. Black Ogrun's claim to fame is drag. If you have a drag target and the ability to make those drags effective then they're uniquely interesting in faction. With black spot they can clear a 10 man unit from 14" if you're lucky. With dash and guided fire they can drag lights accurately from 15" away. Even without drag they're the highest in-faction mat unit, carnage and scything touch they hit at mat 9 p+s 15+3d6 with the right order of activation. That's enough to clear a high def, mid arm heavy. There are ways to use them. Especially in the new theme.
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:20:48 GMT
What if thier drag became more reliable? Would they see play if they gained puncture on thier harpoons? If they gained puncture they would slaughter man o wars and reciprocators. What I really want is that their CRA could drag large bases and make 1 melee attack per CRA member in melee range. Being able to CRA heavies out of zones and plink on them would make them much more useful. Edit: have to kill the Man o war officer first of course
|
|
npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
|
Post by npe on Sept 22, 2017 23:22:40 GMT
Against debuffed shield wall infantry Ogrun can clear zones and break shield wall. I've used helldivers to pretty good effect in square zone control against gunlines. This is primarily against legion, but it's a use. You know what else kills debuffed shield wall infantry, everything else in Cryx. Bane Warriors eat them for breakfast, Satyxis Raiders ignore shield wall, & Bile Thralls auto kill them 2/3 of the time if they're single wound. What makes Boarding Party so good at killing Deneghra1 debuffed Sheild Wall infantry? Why are they better at it than enything else, because if the answer is Drag, which doesn't always work since Man-o-War can't be pushed, that means you've debuffed the unit enough that an unboosted pow 12 can hurt it. At that point literally anything in the faction will do. If I can damage a debuffed Shield Walled unit with the Ogrun Harpoon a charging Bloodgorger's boosted pow 11 + unboosted 11 should be just fine. usable != preferable.
|
|