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Post by sand20go on Sept 14, 2017 13:31:54 GMT
So big believer in "math". Important in a game with 2D6. Sometimes probability doesn't hold for small samples but over the long haul.....
And so I am starting to wonder about putting a full unit of outriders on the table with IF on them under the new theme. You now get their armor up to 17 and, critically, with their 5 wounds that means a POW 10 gun would need a 12 to kill. Even a CRA with it would need a 10. And of course they are Def 13/15 depending on ability to see through shit. Those are longish odds....but vital to try because......
Right behind them you put 1 or 2 units of Doomies. Maybe Fenris. Probably a Bad Santa. Maybe an escort \.
So the idea is that they run forward base to base. Then, if your opponent does not deal with them they use their SP 9 and Repo to do some work but to open things up for our bad ass doomies.
There are some glorious combos - but 2 of our IF casters that seem pretty bad ass in this plan would be Butcher 1 (cause those sprays with 3 dice will be nice but the 5 dice damage doomies are even better) or Sorscha2 (cause Double damage over doomies are "fun")
While I had been thinking about our cloud casters or Z2 for the theme - I am warming to our IF guys and gals.
Thoughts?
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Post by leotherat on Sept 14, 2017 13:40:21 GMT
I had been considering B1 as well just due to the fact that I can then play into ghost fleet or dark host with the same list with confidence. I had been worrying about Z2 having the punch to deal with dark host's high armor.
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Post by auraco on Sept 14, 2017 14:28:59 GMT
I'm guessing you're not planning on dropping that list in a gunline, with only iron flesh as a deffensive measure it won't survive much shooting.
In what kind of list do you plan on dropping such a list?
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Post by sand20go on Sept 14, 2017 14:31:05 GMT
I had been considering B1 as well just due to the fact that I can then play into ghost fleet or dark host with the same list with confidence. I had been worrying about Z2 having the punch to deal with dark host's high armor. +1. This list (with bad santa) also creates problems for the trencher boat as those military rifles are dice minus 6 into the Outriders. Bad Santa means no assualt shots. Under seige2 the boat WILL outthreat the outriders but it means blowing the feat (in that case 19 inch threat vs. 18) but you SHOULD be able in that scenario to simply threaten with 2-3 of the outriders, force the feat, and then clean up the entire boat with the rest. Sure recursion - but you should be seriously up on attrition at that point and Seige himself needs to worry about the feat and peh peh pow 12s from the ponies. (and BTW - I think we WILL start seeing the trencher boat with Seige2/Stryker 2. It provides great dudes be gone coverage for swans while, with fury and the commando's mini-feat providing enough armor cracking to be better, for example, than Z2. Dug in is a great ability for delivering most infantry) |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 14, 2017 14:39:58 GMT
I'm guessing you're not planning on dropping that list in a gunline, with only iron flesh as a deffensive measure it won't survive much shooting. In what kind of list do you plan on dropping such a list? I think it does well into any gun line that ins't equal or greater than POW 12 (and/or which doesn't have damage roll multipliers such as AOEs or electroleaps. So consider hollowmen. POW 11 into ARM 17. RAT 5 into DEF 13 (eyeless sight). With Apparition effective 17 inch threat (so equal to yours). Assuming 2 Man CRAs that is POW 13 vs. ARM 17 or a bit less than a 1/3 chance of killing an Outrider with a 2 man. So you are PROBABLY looking at three mans. You are likely to kill 2 outriders with that - but with CDM 7 you are VERY likely to have everything (including latern boy) in counterstrike range. The stealth arcana doesn't matter....and the "no Spell one" is going to effect just one outrider. You have a good chance of being able to wipe out most of the unit (and again, irritating latern boy) and now have a solid core in that region of the board to start chewing out things like neighslayers or get doomies into the BE. Similarly see trencher boat. Also see GF (which is a bit less because Denny is likely to lower their arm and def but again, you then have her/arc nodes up and that isn't _NECESSARILY_ a bad trade depending on what else you have. |
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Post by auraco on Sept 14, 2017 14:51:39 GMT
Oh I see the use of the theme, I'm just not exactly sure B1 is the best one to run that list, I think Old Witch2 with windstorm to protect the outriders and doom reavers would just be a better pick for that list and cover more bad match ups. Add bad santa and no shooting is just better than the +2 armor provided by iron flesh. At this point, why not run the list with Strakhov2, Inviolable resolve does the same thing as iron flesh for the outriders, quicken and apparition gives them a very good threat range while protecting them and his feat brings all your models to a fairly good armor, with CA on the doom reavers having tough, feint death and rise is pretty sweet. You do lose on Ruin, but it's one of the rare list where you can pack enough magic weapon for Ruin's magic weapon to not be necessary.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 14, 2017 16:05:29 GMT
While it will help against pow 10 CRAs, a rocket or any other boosted damage (charger, hunter, etc.) still kills a pony with IF on average.
You need something like Strakhov2's feat + arm upkeep to tank stuff well enough. They will need to spike a boosted damage roll or waste multiple shots to beat that. You can even tank up two units with him, one with def 15/arm 20, second one with def 17/arm18. And the best part is that you'll be alphaing before feating because ponies + quicken = 21" threat. And because you got the upkeeps preinstalled both units will be alphaing.
Really now, Strakhov2 is so good I'm almost given up on other infantry casters.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 14, 2017 16:37:28 GMT
Regardless of what anyone says, it sounds like a good enough idea to at least test. Do you have the miniatures and willing opponent to try it a couple of times?
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Post by sand20go on Sept 14, 2017 18:16:07 GMT
Regardless of what anyone says, it sounds like a good enough idea to at least test. Do you have the miniatures and willing opponent to try it a couple of times? Yeah. I do. The interesting thing is that while Strak2 has tools for the APPROACH butcher is better on the close (feat effecting doomies; fury rather than last stand on charging ponies). I GET the idea of Strak2 but really wonder if to overcome the limitations of POW 12 ponies (and to ensure doomie maximum carnage) we want something that does max damage on the attack. |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
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Post by kaos on Sept 14, 2017 18:40:56 GMT
Butcher 1 looks really a fantastic caster with a fantastic toolbox of spells. Fury, iron flesh, full throttle is really a very good array. I don't understand why he doesn't see more playtime since looks a fantastic combination of jacks and infantry support spells. His only issue is the lack of threats extenders but is enough to exclude him from the list of competitive casters?
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Post by auraco on Sept 14, 2017 20:31:30 GMT
Butcher 1 looks really a fantastic caster with a fantastic toolbox of spells. Fury, iron flesh, full throttle is really a very good array. I don't understand why he doesn't see more playtime since looks a fantastic combination of jacks and infantry support spells. His only issue is the lack of threats extenders but is enough to exclude him from the list of competitive casters? My personal answer to why Butcher1 isn't more popular: He doesn't have any control element and need to take the hit before starting doing his thing, that makes him extra vulnerable to control casters and they are pretty mich already the strongest kind of casters in warmachine. His lack of control elements and only reactionary gameplay also makes him one of the most boring cadter to p'ay in the game. He does what he's suppose to do well but a good opponent can probably just play around B1's strenght and win right there. |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 15, 2017 0:05:18 GMT
Butcher 1 looks really a fantastic caster with a fantastic toolbox of spells. Fury, iron flesh, full throttle is really a very good array. I don't understand why he doesn't see more playtime since looks a fantastic combination of jacks and infantry support spells. His only issue is the lack of threats extenders but is enough to exclude him from the list of competitive casters? My personal answer to why Butcher1 isn't more popular: He doesn't have any control element and need to take the hit before starting doing his thing, that makes him extra vulnerable to control casters and they are pretty mich already the strongest kind of casters in warmachine. His lack of control elements and only reactionary gameplay also makes him one of the most boring cadter to p'ay in the game. He does what he's suppose to do well but a good opponent can probably just play around B1's strenght and win right there. The one thing is that control casters are SOMEWHAT less of an issue in SR 2017. Still matters. Still powerful. But it isn't the hassles of the score on your turn and auto win crap that dominated SR 2016. So I think that Butcher 1 (agree, he can be BORING, until you live the dream and get to say "shit, I need another dice" when rolling damage) is worth some spins in the new format. |
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 15, 2017 2:56:52 GMT
My personal answer to why Butcher1 isn't more popular: He doesn't have any control element and need to take the hit before starting doing his thing, that makes him extra vulnerable to control casters and they are pretty mich already the strongest kind of casters in warmachine. His lack of control elements and only reactionary gameplay also makes him one of the most boring cadter to p'ay in the game. He does what he's suppose to do well but a good opponent can probably just play around B1's strenght and win right there. The one thing is that control casters are SOMEWHAT less of an issue in SR 2017. Still matters. Still powerful. But it isn't the hassles of the score on your turn and auto win crap that dominated SR 2016. So I think that Butcher 1 (agree, he can be BORING, until you live the dream and get to say "shit, I need another dice" when rolling damage) is worth some spins in the new format. I agree that Butcher1 is worth consideration, people just need to play around his weaknesses and properly utilize his strengths. He has no control capability, so your ability to survive until contact (and negate the effectiveness of your opponent's control ability) is going to have to come from your ability to maneuver your units on the field, utilize terrain, and have the right army list for his spells. Once your army is in contact Butcher1 is looking to make control a moot point by obliterating the opposing force. The sprays on the ponies and the berserk on the Doomies, in essence, provide a volume of fire that, if properly employed, should give you a good chance of winning. The problem is going to be ability to hit: The sprays from the ponies are Magic Ability 6 and the Doomies are MAT 7. While those numbers aren't garbage the ponies are going to have trouble on higher DEF infantry and the Doomies could whiff when you really need to have a lot of hits. (This is the reason why I like Vlad1, but that's another discussion.) Since Butcher1 has no special rules and is very geared to maximizing damage output, warjack selection is going to be super important with Butcher1 in my opinion. While quantity has a quality of its own, I think spending some extra points on 1 or 2 pricier, yet more "interesting" warjacks will pay dividends. A Demolisher or Devastator will provide some "anvil" to the force while a Spriggan (YES! I know it is overpriced!) gives you a "kill that one" ability. (Sometimes I just like to send a Spriggan straight at the warcaster and make it something that has to be dealt with while the rest of my army does its thing. Tee hee!) Beast 09 is very overpriced, but Murderous + 2" Thresher + feat = $$$ (with Hyper Aggressive) - something to consider. I've always thought of Butcher1 as the epitome of Khador: all smash, no flash. You have to provide the flair that other factions rely on special rules to get. P.S. (Giggle - snort) I so dearly love his feat turn! |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Sept 15, 2017 4:14:05 GMT
I don't find butcher different from for example Karchev. Karchev has a threat extender and countercharge so he can in a way influence the board but to be honest countercharge isn't decisive most of the times. Also butcher 1 game isn't so much more boring than Vlad 1. As lost construction, I have my own ideas, that is he should play like Vlad. A bunch of cheap jacks, maybe some of them good enough to absorb the first strike, like devastators and jacks with multiple attacks so he can maximize his focus multiplying abilities. Marauders, Kodiaks, juggernauts, etc. I would take only ruin as premium jack due to the extended threat and utilities. Another good piece look like the gun carriage. Fast and hit at str 17, with 3 dices during feat. Meaning it will put down even the most armored infantry, as long as there is no though roll to stop his crazy run on his track.
And to finish up, two units of winter guard with rockets, because rolling 4 dices on a rocket shoot is just good, especially if you knocked down the target first. So wgk looks is ideal habitat, I think he can say one thing or two, even to stuff like Fyanna 2 due to boosted attack rolls on jacks.
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Post by borderprince on Sept 15, 2017 5:26:48 GMT
I really like Butcher1's spell list, and want to play him, but find he comes up short. He has a powerful set of abilities, with marked gaps (brought out by Blargalicious earlier in the thread).
The most obvious is threat range and this makes him more vulnerable to control casters. It's also why he's easier to play around, at least when using jacks (a 7" charge is rather predictable and, crucially, avoidable). It's why he can be played as a ranged caster, using the feat to crank the damage from rockets and the like, utilising ranged weapons as an alternative to low speed.
It's also why he works well with cavalry, as their naturally high speed pairs well with his damage buffing. I've run a single unit of Uhlans with him (pre-theme days) with some success and I've got this idea for a LoS list with double Uhlans to play to that. Outriders can sort of do the same thing, but they are not so tough as Uhlans (obviously). It might be that their higher DEF will make up for that on the approach, but I think that will need play time. I'm sceptical, because Uhlans can charge in, cause damage, then reposition into B2B while jamming. Outriders might do more damage with sprays, but are much more vulnerable in melee.
For any of the cavalry units, one of the issues with using them to jam is that they are so expensive for doing so.
The alternative is not to play him for the alpha strike, but the counter. Khador has models/jacks which can take an alpha (either because they are tough, or because they are hard to hit).
I think the bigger question here is what is the Butcher1 Greylord theme list meant to achieve? Is it meant to be an all comers list, the ARM cracking list, the anti-Cryx list, the anti-shooting list, or something else? At present the idea is deliver Doomies against some shooting, but not much more. I think a bit more information on the purpose of the list (is it to be considered in the context of a list pair?) might give room for more targeted thoughts on sand20go's idea in the first post.
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