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Post by mcdermott on Sept 15, 2017 5:50:15 GMT
Seems like a meta counter to the almost guaranteed trencher theme force forthcoming.
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Post by skathrex on Sept 15, 2017 9:02:50 GMT
I don't want to be a party pooper, but that list already exists, its called Makeda 2 Cats and even that list is leaving the meta atm.
Reasone why this is not as good as it looks.
1. SR17 forces you to spread, its not good to play a protective game with 2 rows of models anymore (imo) 2. 15/17 is nothing to write home about. Think about our own Stuff, Rockets or larger CRAs, Ghost shots from Pirates, Venator Reivers from WoD, or simply but Chargers. Wit Rat 6 and boost they hit and kill quite reliably 3. The Screen brakes when 1 model dies 4. If you are far enough ahead your stuff also dies easily in melee 5. Only one Unit ist 15/17, the other stay at 15/15
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 15, 2017 12:30:19 GMT
Casters are defined more by they abilities and spells rather than their feat. You will have 7 turns of spells, you will have only 1 turn of feating. Yes, there are some broken feats that get errataed from time to time, but B1 isn't one of those casters.
Butcher 1 surprisingly has very mediocre kit. His main focus is buffing melee and it doesn't work because he doesn't help his stuff get into melee at all. His only trick is putting Vengeful strike on something and wait for opponent to make a mistake about it, that's laughable.
Moving on from melee B1 has ranged applications (and proposed Outriders) but here Vlad 1 or even 2 or even 3 will outdo B1 because S&P and hof are that good.
As far as tanking with infantry goes Strakhov2 just usurped that role.
In terms of impact on a list the best thing he has is bringing Ruin, but so has B2 and B3. Honestly in melee list I'd bring B2 over B1, Outriders aren't a melee list though. And Outriders don't need a Ruin at all.
In the end B1 isn't inherently a bad caster, but competitively everything he does someone does better.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Sept 15, 2017 15:59:39 GMT
I don't know, apparently he has a spell package better than Karchev. He can boost jacks attack rolls, something Karchev can't do en masse, and he cost him 3 focus. He boost infantry, so let's say in Jaws he can take a unit of assassins and slap iron flesh on them for example and he will still support his jacks trough full throttle and his feat, that eventually works board wide both ranged and melee and not only on jacks.
So on paper he is better than Karchev. But Karchev has a threat extender.
I think he is on a big grey area, because also full throttle costs 3 focus, that is a lot, but he has a potentially big array of spells to cast, from fury to full throttle.
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Post by sand20go on Sept 15, 2017 17:11:22 GMT
Seems like a meta counter to the almost guaranteed trencher theme force forthcoming. +1 (and the sort of list I think he is set up with outriders and doomies to deal with). There are three lists that Khador needs to counter in SR 2017 (or at least _I_ have to counter in my meta and given my mates current winning streaks when they commute to other places I think YOU will as well ;-) 1) Trencher boat. Especially trencher Commandos paired with "regular" trenchers and Seige2 and a blockhouse. This list has recursion but more importantly, with dug in, is immune to blasts. In the pre-nerf Joe day WGRC was fine because you could still hit DEF 17 Trenchers. Now you need a 10 or an 8 on a 2 man CRA. Commandos don't have innate dig in but do get it with Seige's feat if they are not using that to get the alpha. While Jaws helps (No AD) the Siege2 package has a surprisingly amount of armor cracking, with Commandos with Fury and the Mini Feat hitting at POW 14 on the charge. The Trencher infantry is going to be POW 16 under Seige 2. This can be survived by Khador Jack_S_ but you better have a decent amount of them...and get ready for Cheap'ish Jacks (and Seige himself) to get into the frey. 2) Double Hollowmen. If you haven't played into this unit welcome to irritating. They threat 17 and they have a nasty recursion element. They help tie down flanks, threaten your caster with a death star shot and set up things for the beasts/neighslayers to come in. Usually will be paired with the stealth arcana so you need an answer there beyond just regular shooting. 3) Ghost Fleet/Dark Host pairing. The problem with all of these is that you need a "Dudes be gone" list that has SOME sprays/volume WITH some aspect of armor cracking. If you don't you get list chickened. Grymkin will drop their dark Meng. list and get their jacks up to ARM 21+ Cryx will drop Dark Host, especially if they have anti-shooting tech with it. Cygnar will drop off list - for example Haley2 and a Hurrican or something else that has lasting power. What I want to do with the Butcher1 list in the Greylord theme is deal with this - using Fury and especially Feat to combat the challenges of BOTH the dudes and the high armor. Won't crack the highest of highest but they can make things a BIT harder than you might think (funny thing is that a charging outrider with Fury under B's feat will do 6 damage, on average to a Fully loaded/BE buffed Skin and Moans - 8 if they can get their impact attack in as well).
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 15, 2017 17:17:58 GMT
Speaking of trenchers and hollowmen, can they punch hard enough to crack 2x shockies, 2x drakhuns, 2-3xheavies under Strakhov2 or Z1? I don't know, apparently he has a spell package better than Karchev. He can boost jacks attack rolls, something Karchev can't do en masse, and he cost him 3 focus. He boost infantry, so let's say in Jaws he can take a unit of assassins and slap iron flesh on them for example and he will still support his jacks trough full throttle and his feat, that eventually works board wide both ranged and melee and not only on jacks. So on paper he is better than Karchev. But Karchev has a threat extender. I think he is on a big grey area, because also full throttle costs 3 focus, that is a lot, but he has a potentially big array of spells to cast, from fury to full throttle. Countercharge and Road to war are better than whatever B1 has. B1 needs something like Escort to make his spell list good.
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Post by sand20go on Sept 15, 2017 17:25:53 GMT
Speaking of trenchers and hollowmen, can they punch hard enough to crack 2x shockies, 2x drakhuns, 2-3xheavies under Strakhov2 or Z1? I don't know, apparently he has a spell package better than Karchev. He can boost jacks attack rolls, something Karchev can't do en masse, and he cost him 3 focus. He boost infantry, so let's say in Jaws he can take a unit of assassins and slap iron flesh on them for example and he will still support his jacks trough full throttle and his feat, that eventually works board wide both ranged and melee and not only on jacks. So on paper he is better than Karchev. But Karchev has a threat extender. I think he is on a big grey area, because also full throttle costs 3 focus, that is a lot, but he has a potentially big array of spells to cast, from fury to full throttle. Countercharge and Road to war are better than whatever B1 has. B1 needs something like Escort to make his spell list good. Counter charge and road to war are good into Lowish model count armies and/or armies where assassination is a viable win strategy. it isn't clear (see above) that it matters (much) into Trencher boat, GF, or Grmkin (you are going to have a hard time shooting anything in the trencher boat to trigger R2W; you probably have ONE RtW triggered in Grymkin before you get the stealth arcana + Neighslayers are small enough to make counter charging hard and while you CAN trigger R2W into ghostfleet not sure that matters after Denny simply murderates you with feat, scourge, and parasite on your large based caster.
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Post by sand20go on Sept 15, 2017 17:32:45 GMT
Speaking of trenchers and hollowmen, can they punch hard enough to crack 2x shockies, 2x drakhuns, 2-3xheavies under Strakhov2 or Z1? I don't know, apparently he has a spell package better than Karchev. He can boost jacks attack rolls, something Karchev can't do en masse, and he cost him 3 focus. He boost infantry, so let's say in Jaws he can take a unit of assassins and slap iron flesh on them for example and he will still support his jacks trough full throttle and his feat, that eventually works board wide both ranged and melee and not only on jacks. So on paper he is better than Karchev. But Karchev has a threat extender. I think he is on a big grey area, because also full throttle costs 3 focus, that is a lot, but he has a potentially big array of spells to cast, from fury to full throttle. Countercharge and Road to war are better than whatever B1 has. B1 needs something like Escort to make his spell list good. I think their win strategy is with eyeless sight is to shoot your caster. See through clouds and ignore stealth. If you wish to hold your heavies/shoctroopers back to screen LOS to the caster (I would) then I think they look to defeat you in detail. By NO means not a BAD drop into Grymkin (cause pow 11 military rifles are still a bit "peh peh") but then we have to think about what their "khador" drop would be. My guess in that list they would love having Heretic in their list (Fury and especially Rebuke) but also King of Nothing (befuff swing) and the Wanderer (enjoy starcrossed) My Vlad 2 list (see thread) isn't _BAD_ into that list (pretty similar) and I have anti-shooting tech and can get rid of the King's cloud wall and he is SO Suishy that he has to worry the whole game about getting wacked by Conquest even with the sheild guarding bunnies.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 16, 2017 1:41:50 GMT
Cryx's jack theme is even more incentive to play koldun theme and outriders against them.
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Post by narvt86 on Sept 18, 2017 5:12:34 GMT
i will have to try it but with greylord/doomreqver theme i want to try sorscha 1, fow put their def at 15, and greylord spray arent affected by it, and she can control et herself high def and mobility. but i like butcher 1 doom reaver have advance so they will get in scenario quite fast just run with butcher to keep up and when yout have ready feat, strahov 2 infantry even with buff dont go that fast since they start behind and his jack are a always late nobody complain about that. try it, its the best way, and people play around butcher use it again them.
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Post by khadorific on Oct 15, 2017 3:27:03 GMT
I agree that Butcher1 has game, if you're prepared to grind one out on attrition.
I've had fun with this list lately. It's basically a Butcher Bunker, keeping him from getting assassinated and forcing an attrition game- with Kodiak clouds, shield guard and Orin. The Kayazy are annoying enough to kill (with IF on one unit and Alexia recursion behind the other), that there's enough dudes left standing for a tough counter attack.
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Fuel Cache - Steamroller Objective
Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov - WJ: +28 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Rager - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Ruin - PC: 17
Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5
Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 0 Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 4 Alexia Ciannor & the Risen - Alexia & 9 Risen Grunts: 10 - Thrall Warrior
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