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Post by Azahul on Mar 5, 2018 22:31:07 GMT
That is worth clarifying, yeah. Do you know if the Thexus player is running the full sixty Drudges, Gastone?
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Post by Gaston on Mar 5, 2018 23:28:06 GMT
That is worth clarifying, yeah. Do you know if the Thexus player is running the full sixty Drudges, Gastone? GYF is the Thexus player lol. He was running Croes I think.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 5, 2018 23:46:48 GMT
Hahaha. Fair enough.
I personally feel the sixty drudges version is stronger. It operates on a similar principle to the old Bone Grinder spam, where you can force out some match-ups just through the sheer number of attacks your opponent will need to make in order to get through it all. But for the Jaga-Jaga match-up, I'd worry that having to deal with a stealth, AD unit terrorising your Croaks from the start would swing things harder towards the Thexus player. The main thing going for you in the match-up is your ability to dictate board position and the terms of engagement, but I think Croes take that away from you pretty effectively.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 5, 2018 23:59:20 GMT
I haven't gotten a chance to get to the previous points, but regarding Croes specifically, the Vault ignores stealth, and the Mist Speaker allows a Spitter to do so as well. So I am not totally helpless? Not that they aren't a threat to the Croaks!
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Post by Azahul on Mar 6, 2018 0:05:40 GMT
I'm more thinking of what they do to your early game board position. Without Croes, you can rush your Croaks forward and set the line of battle wherever best suits you. With Croes... well, if you go first, I think you have 1" to play with before you're entering the Croes' threat range. If you go second, the Croes can be a lot more belligerent (I think they can wrangle a 6" advance before they're likely to come into the threat range of anything in your army). So not totally helpless at all, but I feel like they strip you of one of your principle advantages in the match-up.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 6, 2018 0:57:50 GMT
I'm more thinking of what they do to your early game board position. Without Croes, you can rush your Croaks forward and set the line of battle wherever best suits you. With Croes... well, if you go first, I think you have 1" to play with before you're entering the Croes' threat range. If you go second, the Croes can be a lot more belligerent (I think they can wrangle a 6" advance before they're likely to come into the threat range of anything in your army). So not totally helpless at all, but I feel like they strip you of one of your principle advantages in the match-up. Brosef, look at my deployment for the ToM match up, I couldn't even put the Croaks on my AD line. Losing that advantage happens astoundingly often. It is actually a bit of a source of frustration over how easy pickings Croaks feel to a lot of things like Errants, Idrians, etc.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 6, 2018 1:01:04 GMT
On the "how tall is a 2D house" issue: There is no official general rule. Nothing in the book coveres 2D terrain specifically. So every piece of 2D terrain falls under "custom terrain" which means you would have to discuss with your opponent before the match. For most pieces its unnecessary as it's usually clear what it should be and there is nothing to discuss about a forest or shallow water. Obstructions though are variable in their height, which is not covered by a 2D piece and thus you would have to discuss. That's why TOs should define these things beforehand so everyone has the same information. Around here for example 2D or all obstructions in general are defined set to 6" / unlimited height so that they simply block everything. Thanks for the reply! I kinda feel like 6" tall is a bit harsh (and yes I definitely have a dog in the fight). We grabbed random buildings and measured them, the tallest was just over 5". I mean if you figure a man-dude is 1.75" volume, round to 2" for ceiling space, a two story shanty is 4" tall. And small homesteads frequented by large pig men seem unlikely to rebuild that tall! Either way, it is A) good to hear that this happens to not just me and that people have a system and B) sad to hear that it has to happen at all.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 6, 2018 1:02:45 GMT
TLDR: I 100% agree Arkadius is 50/50 and super depends on who goes first, but literally who else in the faction is better? I cannot think of any other caster that gives me a better shot than Arkadius. I played against Nemo3 with Rask Posse Spam 2 times during the last 3 weeks. Though it was the Colossal build both times. And I won both times. I think that Rask can handle Nemo3 just fine. ARM 16, 8 boxes Posse are not that trivially to remove even under Nemo3 Feat. IMO Nemo3 has to decide wether he goes for some damage or for Scenario, he can´t do both in his first round. That is a major drawback for Nemo3 (as well as for every shooting list). If I remember correctly I won the roll off both times and elected to go first both times. I didn´t do the math / tactics analysis if you´re forced to go second though. I am actually a bit surprised by your analysis, a boosted Pow 12 on Arm 16 is like ~6 damage? So only 2 eleaps to force a tough check. Were you doing something special with positioning?
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Post by Gaston on Mar 6, 2018 1:05:25 GMT
Hah, I may sound like a broken record - but I'm pretty sure Maelok is favored into Nemo3. Going first, it's a pretty easy scenario stomp, but even going second he should be able to attrition as long as you're careful about keeping your thrullgs alive. He should also be fine into Haley3 - CRAs are incredibly inefficient into Gators, especially if you stay out of aiming range until you can feat and run into melee. After that it's just a matter of grinding down all the infantry. Alternatively, if you're more afraid of Haley3, Barnabas1 is an extremely strong counter to her, with a gun immune battlegroup and a feat that kills a ton of models and at least one echo. Nemo3 is hard to dojo for him, since you don't get a feat and it basically comes down to whether he can chain lightning out your incorporeal models. I am not afraid of Haley3 on her own, more as a list pair. There is nothing more satisfying than a Jaga feat on a Haley echo. Maelok/Barney into Haley/Nemo has a similar issue of list chicken. Have you played Maelok into Nemo? I would be curious how it turns out. Posse on the approach are Arm 18 unless you feat, and he was having no issues with the eleaps into my Arm 18 beasts doing 8 damage.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 6, 2018 1:06:43 GMT
Brosef, look at my deployment for the ToM match up, I couldn't even put the Croaks on my AD line. Losing that advantage happens astoundingly often. It is actually a bit of a source of frustration over how easy pickings Croaks feel to a lot of things like Errants, Idrians, etc. Clearly, you need to be running Farrow Commandos I am actually a bit surprised by your analysis, a boosted Pow 12 on Arm 16 is like ~6 damage? So only 2 eleaps to force a tough check. Were you doing something special with positioning? And only a little under half the time the eLeap/Lightning Generator/Chain Lightning will actually do the full 8 damage. Seems like it'd chew through Gators fast.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 6, 2018 1:14:41 GMT
Brosef, look at my deployment for the ToM match up, I couldn't even put the Croaks on my AD line. Losing that advantage happens astoundingly often. It is actually a bit of a source of frustration over how easy pickings Croaks feel to a lot of things like Errants, Idrians, etc. Clearly, you need to be running Farrow Commandos 2 weeks ago! You need to get your Commando on!!!
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Mar 6, 2018 5:49:01 GMT
I played against Nemo3 with Rask Posse Spam 2 times during the last 3 weeks. Though it was the Colossal build both times. And I won both times. I think that Rask can handle Nemo3 just fine. ARM 16, 8 boxes Posse are not that trivially to remove even under Nemo3 Feat. IMO Nemo3 has to decide wether he goes for some damage or for Scenario, he can´t do both in his first round. That is a major drawback for Nemo3 (as well as for every shooting list). If I remember correctly I won the roll off both times and elected to go first both times. I didn´t do the math / tactics analysis if you´re forced to go second though. I am actually a bit surprised by your analysis, a boosted Pow 12 on Arm 16 is like ~6 damage? So only 2 eleaps to force a tough check. Were you doing something special with positioning? Well, really don´t know where this miracle comes from. To be honest, I tried to properly space the models to avoid lightning as much as possible. Maybe there were some bad dice rolls too, maybe it was based on the fact that my ambushing Bog Trog Ambushers got some attention too. Maybe it´s because of the colossal? But there simply weren´t enough attacks to cause major pain. After the 2nd game I realized that you can use Feralgheists as lightning rods just fine if properly placed. Put them near the juicy targets and take care that no other model is within 4" and your opponent has to decide wether he likes to go for the juicy targets (my opponents focused on the beasts) and waste some arcs or to go for the less juicy but tighter placed targets. And there still is the clock. Both opponents (though the second one is quite familiar with his list) needed a lot of time working out their order of activation and target choice. I had a clock advantage from the very first round. Maybe it´s just luck. I don´t know.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 6, 2018 6:01:02 GMT
Hahaha, that Feralgeist idea sounds awesome. A bit finicky to arrange, but awesome.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 6, 2018 6:54:56 GMT
Feralgeists / Gremlin Swarms are always really helpful into Nemo. Even if you don't place them perfectly to soak up every E-Leap, they still reduce shots with Lightning Generator by one jump often times. Each attack you strip of the list helps as it runs out of steam surprisingly fast when you start soaking some of the shots during the feat.
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Post by Dirhavel on Mar 6, 2018 7:35:29 GMT
You can use the scenario flags for the same effect. They're not always placed optimally but sometimes it helps a lot, just soaking leaps or leading the chains away from your important models.
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