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Post by Cryptix on Sept 7, 2017 3:56:59 GMT
Don't start me on this topic or I'll make the forums crash again.
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 7, 2017 4:01:12 GMT
Come on cryptix, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject. I'm pretty sure others would as well. 😜
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Post by jonnyboy on Sept 7, 2017 4:01:48 GMT
I'll do my best to answer the question of 'are they worth their point, if not what should change?'. I think the answer below is fluffy, fits with the other two MOW units, and separates them funtionally.
I think at their current point cost they are not worth bringing. They are easily out done by shock troopers and don't fit a roll. With the bonus below they could stay the same or move to 10/16 for ease of points with a UA etc. Or make their UA 5 points and be a bit more unique.
Has anyone thought about gang? I think it fits thematically and functionally.
Shocktroops get defensive bonuses while b2b and bombadiers have CRA. There seems to be a slight theme of combined power with our MOW, together they are stronger. Now CMA might come to mind, but that seems a bit odd on big 'light warjack' esq dudes like these
Gang would bump up our damage vs a single target or two and also will give them a hit bonus.
It also helps separate the three different units a bit more. Bombadiers are great at clearing infantry and swarm, shocktroopers are there to weather the alphas and hit back kind of hard, and the demos are there to take out the big guys.
What do yall think? Gang, maybe flank like the great bears?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Sept 7, 2017 4:25:30 GMT
Ok, humor me for a moment. Demo Corp get Dismantel, and the CA with the wolf pelt gives them Dismember.
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Post by borderprince on Sept 7, 2017 4:25:57 GMT
I'd take Freeze and Shatter on the Ice Maul base. Doing that could simply be achieved by giving them Weapon Master - both lead to an additional die on damage rolls after the hit. At least one of Freeze or Shatter would need to be a critical effect to justify having both rules. More generally, for the Ice Maul, would it be worth looking at what other hammer/club-type weapons get either as automatic or critical effects? Typically this is Smite (Siege1, Hammersmith, Tiberion, Xerxis1, Grissel2, Borka2) or Ram (Siege2, Grolar). Borka1 has (Critical) Pitch. Would that kind of movement/knockdown ability be worth considering? It is clearly different to what other MoW offer and could work well with Freeze effects as a knocked down and stationary model is pretty much out of the game for a turn. That doesn't follow. Even in armies with light jacks, they can be marshalled, in which case they don't use the battlegroup points and aren't affect by battlegroup spells. MoW are described as the replacement for light warjacks, not simply versions of light jacks. Going down the warjack-equivalency line of thought requires thinking about what type of equivalency can be offered - if they were to be affected by battlegroup spells, should they also be affected by warrior-only spells/feats, for example? That's important for balance in Khador, which has some of the best warrior-only buffs in the game. I like the warjack-equivalency fluff, but implementing it is hard. I think giving the Demo Corps access to trample without forfeiting initial attacks might work. It gives them a means to get through jammers and reach their preferred targets. Or maybe Bulldoze against small/medium based models?
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 6:24:56 GMT
Besides the berserker chassis is the khador replacement for light jacks.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 7, 2017 6:34:40 GMT
I like the idea of not trying to buff their survivability or speed, but instead making them hit super hard as compensation. Shock troopers, ulhans and Great Bears overlap with them in too many ways when considering survivabiliy and speed. I'd potentially just make the base unit weaponmasters at P&S16. They still have victim stats, but will crush anything if not dealt with. The MoW UA pattern seems to be grant one thing, tactics for another, then possibly another ability. I'd like to see them get tactics: shatterstorm (as per the spell, gives them some anti-infantry ability and some RFP, rare in faction) and maybe mini-feat: rapid strike. Possibly another ability snuck in there as a granted ability. Anyway, there's some early morning ramblings from me Cheers, Dave
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Post by borderprince on Sept 7, 2017 6:52:48 GMT
Besides the berserker chassis is the khador replacement for light jacks. Not in background terms (which PP does seem to think is important). According to the Mk2 Forces book, MoW 'can serve a similar purpose' to light jacks (p.68, for anyone who cares). The Berzerker chassis are just older heavy jacks, like the merc jacks.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 6:53:38 GMT
I like the idea of not trying to buff their survivability or speed, but instead making them hit super hard as compensation. Shock troopers, ulhans and Great Bears overlap with them in too many ways when considering survivabiliy and speed. I'd potentially just make the base unit weaponmasters at P&S16. They still have victim stats, but will crush anything if not dealt with. The MoW UA pattern seems to be grant one thing, tactics for another, then possibly another ability. I'd like to see them get tactics: shatterstorm (as per the spell, gives them some anti-infantry ability and some RFP, rare in faction) and maybe mini-feat: rapid strike. Possibly another ability snuck in there as a granted ability. Anyway, there's some early morning ramblings from me Cheers, Dave I worry that lobbying a natural, permanent weaponmaster ability onto them at pow 16 is going to come with a commensurate increase in points that's going to push them right back into "unuseable" for the majority of khador players. I cant imagine they'd be willing to give them anything that makes them naturally (outside of a minifeat) hit harder than the drakhun at 15 points a unit.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 7, 2017 9:48:27 GMT
Yeah that's a fair worry. I was hoping to work around this by not increasing their threat range or survivability without external help.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by jonnyboy on Sept 7, 2017 10:56:00 GMT
I was thinking, what if we gave them an ability similar to the greylord's ice cage? Replace critical freeze with 'Chiller'.
"A model hit by this weapon suffers a cumulative -1 DEF for one turn unless it has cold immunity. When a model without cold immunity is hit with two or more chiller attacks t becomea stationary for one round"
This gives a lot of utility. They can now reliably stationary targets or provide attack bonuses to the rest of the army.
You could also give them shatter. On a min unit only one MOW is getting 'weapon master'. You could also have a UA grant shatter and another ability like relentless charge.
This would be a bit more fluffy, give them a small damage boost, and provide some utility for the rest of the army.
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Post by leotherat on Sept 7, 2017 12:35:08 GMT
HOw about giving them native tactician and relentless charge? With tactician they can hide behind the shockies and with relentless charge they have enough movement to get through the shock troopers and get their charge attack off. Or something to those effects.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 13:21:57 GMT
60 bucks on the mystery bannerman handing out tactitian and allowing shaking of continous effects.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 7, 2017 14:12:41 GMT
Come on cryptix, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject. I'm pretty sure others would as well. 😜 You brought this upon yourself. Hit me up with a beat! www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nCqRmx3DnwNow this a story all about how I got my heart twisted around And I'd like to take a moment to simmer down there About how I became a supporter of the man-o-warjacks I came in during Mk2, started to play Infantry spam was just all the craze Winter Guard and Kayazy were all that was played All except for the poor Man-o-War losers No one took them, cause they cost double a light And they couldn't even boost. I started a bit of a fight back on the PP forums and then the mods kicked me out and sent me down to Lormahordes. Now this forums a bit inactive Look at that, I'm a mod, maybe I'll survive But then someone mentioned those Man-o-War and I wanted to start another rant and a roar I mean, if you listen, you can tell something's wrong. Supposed to be as durable as a light, but getting shot off the board And when they get there, not even worth it, they're weaker than a Kodiak I just want to ask you lot, its a crazy idea, but what if we had these lards in the battlegroup? Then Harkevich could speed them up, or Kharchev counter charge And Strakhov could fix all of their problems, catch them less flak. Now thanks for listening to all my crazy ideas My momma didn't wanna talk about it, my bro thought I was insane But you lot, you my homies, my Khadoran kin I'll just be over here, the fresh mod at Lormahordes.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 7, 2017 14:40:59 GMT
First off I like this series of threads; keep it constructive people! I currently believe that the Demo Corps are NOT worth their points because there are two in faction units that perform their roll better then they do for comparable price: Great Bears: Costing the same as a min unit the great bears have +3 DEF and the same ARM as the DC; they also have tough but lack 3 hp each which makes them more survivable in my opinion then the DC. The GB have twice the attacks a min unit has and with flank they hit HARD and ACCURATELY. They have 2" better threat and benefit from all the Iron Fang buffs like Markov and the Kovnic. Ulhans: A max unit is the same price as a max unit of DC plus a MOW Kovnic so that is my point comparison. Ulhand have +2 DEF and +3 ARM then the DC which is VASTLY superior to the 3 extra hp (+3 ARM is better versus multiple attacks, and merely the same against a single attack). The Ulhans also have 2 attacks each (a mount and a lance) have access to impact attacks; boosted charge attack rolls; and clock in at TWICE the SPD of the DC. The MOW Kovnic increases their threat with +2 movement, but +2" movement on a *action is strictly worse that native +4 SPD obviously. Assuming both the Great Bears and the Ulhans are performing as intended by PP (which I would say is likely considering they made Iron Legion) then DC are strictly outmatched by our existing in faction unit choices. DC in my opinion suffer from the worst defensive stats in the game for heavy infantry and a lack of options in melee. I would like to see the base unit gain Shatter and Wall of Steel, with the UA granting a second attack through Rapid Strike or a *attack. In order to get these things I would recommend a point increase to bring them in line with the other MOW units and possibly a reduction in POW by 1 or 2 points. These suggestions can be tweeked if they are found to be to strong when tested obviously. Yeah, if we compare them it's: Uhlans have cavalry charge. Bears have rapid strike. Shockies have shield wall order. Fangs have shield wall order. Doomies have berserk. Demos have ... nothing, their card is blank. At this point any meaningful useful melee ability would be welcomed, preferably a special attack since the tank role is already taken by shockies.
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