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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 6, 2017 23:03:18 GMT
First off I like this series of threads; keep it constructive people! I currently believe that the Demo Corps are NOT worth their points because there are two in faction units that perform their roll better then they do for comparable price: Great Bears: Costing the same as a min unit the great bears have +3 DEF and the same ARM as the DC; they also have tough but lack 3 hp each which makes them more survivable in my opinion then the DC. The GB have twice the attacks a min unit has and with flank they hit HARD and ACCURATELY. They have 2" better threat and benefit from all the Iron Fang buffs like Markov and the Kovnic. Ulhans: A max unit is the same price as a max unit of DC plus a MOW Kovnic so that is my point comparison. Ulhand have +2 DEF and +3 ARM then the DC which is VASTLY superior to the 3 extra hp (+3 ARM is better versus multiple attacks, and merely the same against a single attack). The Ulhans also have 2 attacks each (a mount and a lance) have access to impact attacks; boosted charge attack rolls; and clock in at TWICE the SPD of the DC. The MOW Kovnic increases their threat with +2 movement, but +2" movement on a *action is strictly worse that native +4 SPD obviously. Assuming both the Great Bears and the Ulhans are performing as intended by PP (which I would say is likely considering they made Iron Legion) then DC are strictly outmatched by our existing in faction unit choices. DC in my opinion suffer from the worst defensive stats in the game for heavy infantry and a lack of options in melee. I would like to see the base unit gain Shatter and Wall of Steel, with the UA granting a second attack through Rapid Strike or a *attack. In order to get these things I would recommend a point increase to bring them in line with the other MOW units and possibly a reduction in POW by 1 or 2 points. These suggestions can be tweeked if they are found to be to strong when tested obviously. I think this sums it up nicely. The comparison to the Uhlans is valid and extraordinarily unfavorable for the Demo Corps. I like the suggestions of Shatter and Wall of Steel, but compared to the Uhlans they still suffer from a paucity of attacks. I would grant Cleave natively so they can handle jamming dude swarms. The UA? Lots of options. The one I like most is an extra die of damage against Large or Huge based models. Siege Weapon is too niche. These guys are supposed to be the heavy hitters to take out big jacks and beasts.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 6, 2017 23:16:31 GMT
I seriously say that wall of steel is a lost cause. Being slightly second stringers to MOW shocktroopers is a bad move in my opinion.
Let them be as crappy on the approach as possible if they hit super duper hard on hits
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Post by tesoe on Sept 6, 2017 23:17:24 GMT
I'd like to see them get their MK2 attack options back and have a CA give some kind of defensive buff.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 6, 2017 23:24:13 GMT
To my mind Wall of Steel is not to make them a front line unit, just keep them alive against a stiff breeze. DEF 10 ARM 16 is tied for the worst defensive stat line in the game (tied with Bombardiers ironically) most are DEF 12 ARM 16 or better on heavy infantry.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 6, 2017 23:30:08 GMT
MoW Demo Corps CA
Mat 7 Def 10 Arm 16 4 points
Granted: Relentless charge Tactics: Cleave Minifeat: Power Swell.
Mobility for the charge, increased volume of attacks to make up for being a 5 man unit, weapon master on the turn it matters most.
All the issues with DC that can be handled via a UA handled while keeping them as an offensive unit.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 6, 2017 23:36:56 GMT
I do wonder of Rowdy has a point... will adding Wall of Steel or other defensive tech on the approach necessitate a counter recraption (see how I did that) with their offensive stat line?
What they need most, really, when you get down to it: more damage output against enemy heavies. That's why you brought them. If you add this plus the ability to mow down enemy infantry then you give them a purpose. So, giving them back their MK 2 abilities is pretty damn close to the mark.
I'll take Cleave + Additional Die vs. Large or Huge Models.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 7, 2017 0:03:46 GMT
I'd take Freeze and Shatter on the Ice Maul base, and a CA that gave Rapid Strike.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 0:10:50 GMT
I do wonder of Rowdy has a point... will adding Wall of Steel or other defensive tech on the approach necessitate a counter recraption (see how I did that) with their offensive stat line? Honestly I cant imagine taking the MoW theme with a caster that doesn't either offer +2 arm on an upkeep or +2 speed on a spell. Armor that doesn't QUITE reach the other end of the average damage curve and speed that doesn't QUITE make it to objectives in time have been the real anchors holding the MoW units down. +2 arm fixes the first, +2 speed fixes the second. I think trying to play it outside of having those two tools is going to be an exercise in frustration.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 0:21:07 GMT
My point is that at the moment shocktroopers offer waaaay more defense as well as on par or better offense. But are also in a good spot.
Id rather the demo core be different tgen compete for a way too similar spot.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 0:24:48 GMT
My point is that at the moment shocktroopers offer waaaay more defense as well as on par or better offense. But are also in a good spot. Id rather the demo core be different tgen compete for a way too similar spot. Exactly, they need to get into combat and kill better, not be tuff as shocktroopers.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 0:30:30 GMT
My point is that at the moment shocktroopers offer waaaay more defense as well as on par or better offense. But are also in a good spot. Id rather the demo core be different tgen compete for a way too similar spot. Exactly, they need to get into combat and kill better, not be tuff as shocktroopers. I mean id like them to be slow glass cannons or provide very good wuality utility like automatic freeze. Thats pretty powerful, but could compensate a bad everything else.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 7, 2017 3:07:27 GMT
MoW Demo Corps CA Mat 7 Def 10 Arm 16 4 points Granted: Relentless charge Tactics: Cleave Minifeat: Power Swell. Mobility for the charge, increased volume of attacks to make up for being a 5 man unit, weapon master on the turn it matters most. All the issues with DC that can be handled via a UA handled while keeping them as an offensive unit. I like that you are offering ideas for the CA, but I think it would be better to flesh out the CA after the base unit has been figured out. But I also realize that we can't nail down the base unit without keeping the CA in mind. I suggest that we stay on topic with this thread (which we have very well so far!) I suggest we figure out: 1) If the base unit is worth its points ~by itself~ 2) If the base unit is not worth its points, what needs to be done to make it A) worth its points (necessary) B) relevant for competitive play (desired) C) true to the fluff (needed to keep PP happy) 3) If we are going to talk about the CA, it needs to be done in relation to what the base unit will be like.The CA is going to get a thread of its own soon enough, so let's try to nail down the base unit first.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 3:11:49 GMT
Id like them at 16 Points. Makes calculation easy.
Honestly I do gotta ask if PP will do anything with "Manowars are Khadors Light Warjacks!"
Because they don't at all and not even close. Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Or will that fluff just be dropped?
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 7, 2017 3:16:49 GMT
That's the question I've asked a bunch and never got a satisfactory answer to. If they are our version of light jacks then they should use battlegroup points and be affected by battlegroup spells. That would be a game changer. Just think about them in Kharchev's battlegroup. Now that sounds like silly fun!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 3:30:45 GMT
At the very least they could fulfill similar roles. Because they mostly overlap with our heavies.
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