Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 5, 2017 10:28:16 GMT
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Post by Trollock on Sept 5, 2017 11:04:44 GMT
Im still in the camp of believers that when they go back and manually add the possibility to include mercs in themes, they will fix BoH by adding the runebearer and making all units count towards free points. Please God make that be the case! Also, the possibility to add mercs in PoD allows you to take Swamp Gobbers to score almost for free. If all else fails, ill move my caster in to the round zone and tank like a boss Im not sure SotN solves all troll problems, but it is a much more well designed theme than BoH. None of that horrible skornegy of fennblades/stone not counting towards points and so on. let us hope that this is the way they will build all themes. I do not think that the merc theme irregulars will be the norm though, so PoD will probably have to make do with what it has now, plus possibly some minions. Maybe some more powerful(expensive) solo options could be coming the next year or so too...
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Post by Eric on Sept 5, 2017 11:05:40 GMT
Great article I completely agree with your assessments. I am very disappointed in PP's mk3 trolls. Ever since the mk3 insider over a year ago, where Will proudly says the skinner now got Weapon Master... It shows me how little attention they give this faction, or even care about it. And as you mention a lot of the theme stuff does'nt make sense either. Fennblades not counting towards free points in BoH, Runeshapers and the Krielstone. I hate the krielstone in mk3 - it's a ball and chain to the faction. We NEED it in POD, but it deducts the themes 4th solo. A free Krielstone in theme would be awesome. And the solos we get for free are not even that good imo. Janissa lost her glory, the shaman is decent, but a lot of the times I just see Whelps. Meanwhile Cygnar gets VALUE junior, squire, strangeways etc. I feel every Trollblood lists plays down in points. Partly because of Theme and partly because it's Hordes where we pay a little too much for our beasts. That quickly adds up to being disadvantaged in every single match, and that's just not fun in the long run... How to save the faction?
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Post by trollsareblue on Sept 5, 2017 12:17:05 GMT
Great article I completely agree with your assessments. I am very disappointed in PP's mk3 trolls. Ever since the mk3 insider over a year ago, where Will proudly says the skinner now got Weapon Master... It shows me how little attention they give this faction, or even care about it. And as you mention a lot of the theme stuff does'nt make sense either. Fennblades not counting towards free points in BoH, Runeshapers and the Krielstone. I hate the krielstone in mk3 - it's a ball and chain to the faction. We NEED it in POD, but it deducts the themes 4th solo. A free Krielstone in theme would be awesome. And the solos we get for free are not even that good imo. Janissa lost her glory, the shaman is decent, but a lot of the times I just see Whelps. Meanwhile Cygnar gets VALUE junior, squire, strangeways etc. I feel every Trollblood lists plays down in points. Partly because of Theme and partly because it's Hordes where we pay a little too much for our beasts. That quickly adds up to being disadvantaged in every single match, and that's just not fun in the long run... How to save the faction? It isn't just Trolls, every hordes faction is weaker. If you ignore JVM's wins, hordes hasn't won squat for tournaments. Four of the top five factions represented at WTC are Warmachine factions. PP massively overvalued the Fury system in the transition, and it isn't like to get better any time soon.
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Post by Eric on Sept 5, 2017 13:08:33 GMT
Yeah it's annoying af. Another insider from a year ago(?) or so that crushed me, was a handfull of questions to PP about the new mk3. Someone asked if PP thought there was an imbalance between Warmachine and Hordes, and if Hordes was the inferior of the 2, to which the simple answer was: "No." I just stared at that for 5 mins in disbelief. Because every other evidence proved that wrong, and still to this day it, as you point out trollsareblue, holds true. Warmachine. Is. Better. Look at the price of Grymkin beasts: Way more in line with Warjacks. And way better than a lot of other Warbeasts. It's super frustrating when you love the game, but the developers are so naive
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 5, 2017 13:15:44 GMT
Yeah it's annoying af. Another insider from a year ago(?) or so that crushed me, was a handfull of questions to PP about the new mk3. Someone asked if PP thought there was an imbalance between Warmachine and Hordes, and if Hordes was the inferior of the 2, to which the simple answer was: "No." I just stared at that for 5 mins in disbelief. Because every other evidence proved that wrong, and still to this day it, as you point out trollsareblue, holds true. Warmachine. Is. Better. Look at the price of Grymkin beasts: Way more in line with Warjacks. And way better than a lot of other Warbeasts. It's super frustrating when you love the game, but the developers are so naive It did make me laugh when Soles said that "Nobody could say definitively that Warmachine were stronger than Hordes" last December. It just kind of blew my mind, because it's so obvious if you play the game every week.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Sept 5, 2017 23:12:18 GMT
Good article! Thanks for sharing it.
I'm not waiting on 'hope' that they'll fix Theme 'A' or 'B' for Trollbloods (or any of my other factions). I play what works for me to compete (read: WIN), currently, within PoD (1st), then BoH (distant 2nd) and have stayed away from Kriel Company's (no Mauler) significant limitations.
Theme lists, in general, skew competitive (and much casual) army building towards free solos/CAs, and are thus far less diverse army building experiences or even worse, PLAYING experiences. The hobby aspect of painting 4 units of Runeshapers or 4 Slags (MK2 baloney) is also a fairly uninspiring exercise, which I avoided/avoid.
Imagine a limited Theme list that was HIGHLANDER style (forced FA1) that gave you an equivalent amount of free solo/CA points as current Theme lists, or even MORE, since spamming the best/most effective units would NOT be an option. More diverse play for me, more unique opposing models for my opponent to encounter. (More reason for folks to purchase multiple PIPs instead of just 3-4...)
For our faction, it's encouraging to see some re-thinking of point costs (EBDT <-- Really?, Pyre <--still not enough). The changes as of must recent errata/CID have not crossed the threshold of 'This will cause me to build differently!', except with the Sea King.
Similar to MK2 where TBs came late into becoming powerhouses (only after Runes of War, Miserable Meat Mountain, EE), I expect TB's MK3 power progression will be slow: whelp->Pyg->Trollkin->Dire->KING. Still I will enjoy fighting the uphill battle, as is the Trollkin way, becoming a King, if only for a day
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Post by Hotwater on Sept 6, 2017 15:20:40 GMT
Im still in the camp of believers that when they go back and manually add the possibility to include mercs in themes, they will fix BoH by adding the runebearer and making all units count towards free points. Please God make that be the case! Also, the possibility to add mercs in PoD allows you to take Swamp Gobbers to score almost for free. If all else fails, ill move my caster in to the round zone and tank like a boss Im not sure SotN solves all troll problems, but it is a much more well designed theme than BoH. None of that horrible skornegy of fennblades/stone not counting towards points and so on. let us hope that this is the way they will build all themes. I do not think that the merc theme irregulars will be the norm though, so PoD will probably have to make do with what it has now, plus possibly some minions. Maybe some more powerful(expensive) solo options could be coming the next year or so too... I like the idea of BoH keeping the exclusivity around the models that give you free points, i just think point cost for free models is too high. Dropping it down to 15pts solves a lot of the theme's problems without taking the flavor away and keeping it primarily the elite melee troops theme.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Sept 6, 2017 16:53:23 GMT
Im still in the camp of believers that when they go back and manually add the possibility to include mercs in themes, they will fix BoH by adding the runebearer and making all units count towards free points. Please God make that be the case! Also, the possibility to add mercs in PoD allows you to take Swamp Gobbers to score almost for free. If all else fails, ill move my caster in to the round zone and tank like a boss Im not sure SotN solves all troll problems, but it is a much more well designed theme than BoH. None of that horrible skornegy of fennblades/stone not counting towards points and so on. let us hope that this is the way they will build all themes. I do not think that the merc theme irregulars will be the norm though, so PoD will probably have to make do with what it has now, plus possibly some minions. Maybe some more powerful(expensive) solo options could be coming the next year or so too... I like the idea of BoH keeping the exclusivity around the models that give you free points, i just think point cost for free models is too high. Dropping it down to 15pts solves a lot of the theme's problems without taking the flavor away and keeping it primarily the elite melee troops theme. Well if it's supposed to be about the elite troops then why does it allow the "non-elite" troops at all? Irregardles I think BoHs issues will be moot once champ changes, new Krielstone, northkin elder and nuMadrak1 go live.
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Post by Hotwater on Sept 6, 2017 17:09:10 GMT
I like the idea of BoH keeping the exclusivity around the models that give you free points, i just think point cost for free models is too high. Dropping it down to 15pts solves a lot of the theme's problems without taking the flavor away and keeping it primarily the elite melee troops theme. Well if it's supposed to be about the elite troops then why does it allow the "non-elite" troops at all? Irregardles I think BoHs issues will be moot once champ changes, new Krielstone, northkin elder and nuMadrak1 go live. Because if it wasn't about the elite troops those models would count toward your free points. All the more reason an additional non-elite troop theme would be better than trying to make BoH do both poorly.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Sept 6, 2017 18:38:55 GMT
Well if it's supposed to be about the elite troops then why does it allow the "non-elite" troops at all? Irregardles I think BoHs issues will be moot once champ changes, new Krielstone, northkin elder and nuMadrak1 go live. Because if it wasn't about the elite troops those models would count toward your free points. All the more reason an additional non-elite troop theme would be better than trying to make BoH do both poorly. Then we are in agreement. I am amenable to them either splitting it into 2 themes or removing the points restrictions.
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Post by pyrrhicvictory on Sept 6, 2017 19:14:06 GMT
I think the trolls fail at 2 things: tech and accessing tech, and non-linear play.
Most of our tech is bound in units or beasts. Very little to none of it is bound to solos. This means higher start up costs or "Taxes". This higher start up limits the amount of tech a list can effectively bring. In a two list format, this means we are more likely to face a list we could not cover for due to space limitations.
Without a bag of tricks (I all we got is goading and befuddle? moving faster is not a trick) playing against a trollblood player becomes a linear encounter. This means that most opponents will have less decisions to make playing against you. Making less decisions means less chances to make mistakes and that is the crux of any strategy game. Forcing your opponent to make as many mistakes or failures as possible is how you maximize your chances of winning. Now, if you look at top tier armies, they always play the role of the aggressor in a game that rewards aggression. They impose tempo, with any combination of their threat vectors, critical mass or denial. These are the kind of lists that trigger pre-built responses from the opposition. We currently don't trigger than in other factions. There's nothing we do that isn't done better by someone else. So we become the defender, and the defender needs to have good tech to deal with those, but we have access to less tech at any given time because of the increased start up costs.
this is a very simplified rendition of the problem, but you get where I am going with this.
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Post by Hotwater on Sept 6, 2017 19:19:55 GMT
Because if it wasn't about the elite troops those models would count toward your free points. All the more reason an additional non-elite troop theme would be better than trying to make BoH do both poorly. Then we are in agreement. I am amenable to them either splitting it into 2 themes or removing the points restrictions. And they just made that exact point cost change I was talking about to sons of the tempest, so here's hoping.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Sept 6, 2017 19:50:28 GMT
Without a bag of tricks (I all we got is goading and befuddle? moving faster is not a trick) Whoa, whoa, whoa. Moving fast IS a trick . That said I think you're ignoring Overtake surfing with Doom2/Madrak2. With those warlocks you can land some pretty mean hombres in places your opponent really doesn't want them. Opponent puts their caster/lock just outside of 14" of mulg? No problem, just charge and fist some poor soul along the way and bam! You just landed on their caster/lock with 5 auto-boosted to hit mat 7 pow 19s. Very few casters/locks can take that and survive while doing significant work with spells.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 6, 2017 20:00:33 GMT
Again, Band is easily fixed. Add the Runebearer, allow any units to count toward freebies. Done.
I don't think that Band even needs Merc Inclusion so much, though that would be nice. It's just that Champs and Long Riders are getting buffs, the revamped Madrak 1 is amazing with anything in the theme, +2 Deployment is amazing (I miss it so...) and army-wide RFP is golden in multiple matchups IF you can deliver troops into melee, which quite a few of our casters can.
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