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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 26, 2017 13:52:42 GMT
Outriders with Zerkova2 threat 26 currently. Against a stealthed model, Aiyana threats 20 with Kiss, and Zerkova can tag a stealthed model with her stationary spell through an outrider arc node from 23 away from where her arc node starts the turn. These threat ranges are all potentially going to increase by 2 if the theme keeps the apparation bonus. Cheers, Dave Thats all kinda a massive rigamarole that depends on no screening units and somehow not getting any freestrikes running within 5 inches of the enemy caster. |
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Post by khador0932 on Aug 26, 2017 13:59:57 GMT
Outriders with Zerkova2 threat 26 currently. Against a stealthed model, Aiyana threats 20 with Kiss, and Zerkova can tag a stealthed model with her stationary spell through an outrider arc node from 23 away from where her arc node starts the turn. These threat ranges are all potentially going to increase by 2 if the theme keeps the apparation bonus. Cheers, Dave Problem is I don't think is going to consistently win you a game against a Ghost Fleet player who knows how the army works. Not to mention if they drop their other list with a whole bunch of arm 20 bane cav. If the Deneghra player sits back and waits for the feat, keeps her insurance models outside of even run & feat range, she can take it on the chin and then (pretty trivially, -4/-4 on one unit and -2/-2 on the other) just get rid of your outriders. There's also zero reason for Deneghra to not be camping 7 every turn unless she's killing Outriders, at which point she can obviously adjust her camp accordingly. Also, due to the fun and interactive way that Ghost Fleet recursion works, if you extend outriders to kill rifles they can just bring back the rifles and shoot you off your horses. Not a matchup I'd look forward to. Especially with the caveat that it gets worse if they just drop a truckload of arm 20/22 bane riders on you. |
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Post by Netherby on Aug 26, 2017 17:10:26 GMT
She is only fine at 6 points if you think Eyriss is fine at 7 points or that MoW Kovnik is totally worth 5 points... Or that Koldun Lord, totally worth 4 points right? So what cost do you think Solos should have? Eyriss should be 5 points. MoW Kovnik should be 3. Koldun Lord should be 0 because he's useless. Sofia should be 4 points in her current form. Honestly a large number of the solos need to come down a point. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 26, 2017 17:27:12 GMT
Eyriss should be 5 points. MoW Kovnik should be 3. Koldun Lord should be 0 because he's useless. Sofia should be 4 points in her current form. Honestly a large number of the solos need to come down a point. What about the Widowmaker Marksman? Or how about Unit Attachments? Bokur But I do see a point to your arguments. Certain Solos can fare way better in combat doing their intended role as opposed to this sort of internal solo costing. I can see how from a Distance the Manhunter and the Widowmaker Marksman are similar, but in execution they result differently. However its important that Sofia get tested. Because she provides way more than just combat capability. And maybe she really is worth 6 points. Its also important to keep in mind that some solos "In theory" cost way more but fail in function. Like the Koldun Lord needs to just be redesigned to work like the Hydra in my opinion. He only works with OW2 otherwise. |
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Post by Netherby on Aug 26, 2017 21:54:27 GMT
The Marksman is borderline at 4 points. I don't think swift hunter for a unit of 4 widow makers is particularly relevant and to really be worth the 4 points he should have something more useful. But at least you can take him in a list and not feel like an idiot, unlike the poor man hunters  I'm happy with most of the unit attachments, I think they are usually worth their cost. Only the Mechanic Officer and Greylord Escort really seem over priced for what they bring. The Bokur is probably a point too much in all honesty. Shield Guard isn't really that clutch in Mk3. Lists that make good use of it are the ones that have many sources of it. He does hit quite hard, but has to be within a short distance of the client to do it. The main issue here though is that you can take multiple Bokurs, so you have to balance the cost against the possibility how exponential gains when you add a second one. With Sofia, there is only ever one. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 26, 2017 22:01:36 GMT
The Marksman is borderline at 4 points. I don't think swift hunter for a unit of 4 widow makers is particularly relevant and to really be worth the 4 points he should have something more useful. But at least you can take him in a list and not feel like an idiot, unlike the poor man hunters I'm happy with most of the unit attachments, I think they are usually worth their cost. Only the Mechanic Officer and Greylord Escort really seem over priced for what they bring. The Bokur is probably a point too much in all honesty. Shield Guard isn't really that clutch in Mk3. Lists that make good use of it are the ones that have many sources of it. He does hit quite hard, but has to be within a short distance of the client to do it. The main issue here though is that you can take multiple Bokurs, so you have to balance the cost against the possibility how exponential gains when you add a second one. With Sofia, there is only ever one. Honestly legitimate points. I feel like after the Crabbits, PP should really stop overpricing Shield Guard. |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268 
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Post by kaos on Aug 26, 2017 22:41:11 GMT
The Marksman is borderline at 4 points. I don't think swift hunter for a unit of 4 widow makers is particularly relevant and to really be worth the 4 points he should have something more useful. But at least you can take him in a list and not feel like an idiot, unlike the poor man hunters I'm happy with most of the unit attachments, I think they are usually worth their cost. Only the Mechanic Officer and Greylord Escort really seem over priced for what they bring. The Bokur is probably a point too much in all honesty. Shield Guard isn't really that clutch in Mk3. Lists that make good use of it are the ones that have many sources of it. He does hit quite hard, but has to be within a short distance of the client to do it. The main issue here though is that you can take multiple Bokurs, so you have to balance the cost against the possibility how exponential gains when you add a second one. With Sofia, there is only ever one. Solos to me are a bit more relevant now, due to their capacity to control flags. Meaning that if that widowmaker marksman can't pull weight on his speciality (removing mono wounds infantry) he can still sit on a flag. Last time I played a Karchev list and he wasn't too brilliant, killing few models and in general not being this big champ. I tought if it was better to switch him for mechs. Then I just thought... How I'm gonna contest flags without having my caster go there personally? I can't really risk the greylords so he is the stealthy guy who can fulfill that role. Having solos with stealth sitting on a flag looks quite good now, some stuff are surely overpriced, but when you basically don't pay for them in themes, does it really matters? |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 27, 2017 4:45:55 GMT
Having solos with stealth sitting on a flag looks quite good now, some stuff are surely overpriced, but when you basically don't pay for them in themes, does it really matters? Yes. Because good game design and things compete for "Free Model" slots anyway. |
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Post by Netherby on Aug 27, 2017 17:27:25 GMT
Having solos with stealth sitting on a flag looks quite good now, some stuff are surely overpriced, but when you basically don't pay for them in themes, does it really matters? If PP only wants to see the model in a theme (which is entirely possible), then over pricing it could be how they do it. But that starts cutting your list design options. If Sofia is 6 points then you are essentially FORCED to take her as a free card in your LegoS list if you plan to take her. When it comes to other models that maybe under perform for their points cost, the theme generally will have other more attractive options to take as your free cards. If they were costed correctly, you may still not take them as your free card, but instead opt to pay to put them in the list. And here is the real kicker. You could argue that in a theme list PP thinks the selection of free solos you get are worth roughly the same but that outside that theme they could be more powerful and need to be priced higher. But Sofia is DESIGNED to go in the Iron Fang theme, she will only be weaker outside of it. |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 28, 2017 5:16:32 GMT
If you want to take Sofia, you take her as free card and pay cheaper solos. But I agree about the argument of making them less playable outside of theme. It's like mow forgeseer. Great in theme as long as is free, not so great otherwise since you pay maybe too much for it.
The free points in theme is a bit of a issue imho, since you have an average of 8 point advantage vs a non theme list and even if isn't a so big advantage, is still an advantage.
I reiterate the concept, mercs reduced viability outside of their main faction is what's makes people take themes. If A&H were fully effective in a non merc army or some other mercs were a bit cheaper, they would make a strong argument about taking or not theme forces. If they allow mercs in themes the scale will definitely tilt in favour of theme only lists.
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Post by Netherby on Aug 28, 2017 5:28:44 GMT
Pretty much all the really strong Mk2 mercs got hit in some way, either though points increases, faction only abilities or reduction in effectiveness or a combination of all three. Then you also can't take them in themes...
Even if you never plan or want to play outside a theme, you have to expect other models to come out eventually that will compete with Sofia. If she is correctly costed now then she can still go in a future list where otherwise she might get pushed out.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 1, 2017 9:53:12 GMT
So, anyone else annoyed that PP made no changes to Sofya for week 2? Especially after doing nothing other than dropping her point cost by one in the first update.
Even just some slight rules changes along with something like "we think she's working as we want, but we wanted to see how she played with a couple different rules instead" would have been nice. Compared to the stuff being tried out in the other factions it feels like they've just felt Khador was "fine" and left it at that.
Not saying she's bad, just that I'm disappointed in PP's apparent lack of desire to make a Khador model more interesting.
Cheers,
Dave
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Sept 1, 2017 9:54:35 GMT
Based on what I've seen I find her pretty interesting. I'd be more than happy to play that model as is!
What is her point cost now?
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 1, 2017 9:56:24 GMT
She's 5pts now.
Yeah she seems kind of ok, but doesn't add anything new to Legion of Steel or the iron fang boat in general. Other people have done better summaries than me based on their games over on the CiD forums though.
Cheers,
Dave
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Sept 1, 2017 9:59:52 GMT
Ah. Fair enough!
I'm not on the CID. Apparently being silly is not allowed, so I don't have a whole lot to contribute!
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